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I just picked up this SKS from Southern Ohio Gun, it was listed as Chinese, but after picking it up I'm not finding any markings that I recognize from the either the chinese or Russian ID pinned posts. The import mark, which I didn't take a picture of, does say China on it.
Any help would be appreciated! I tried to post pictures of any and all markings that I could find.
Welcome to the forum, no markings on the cover at all? I think the marking at the back of the rear sight means infinity in Russian...
I would say not Chinese because of the bayonet being a flat blade rather than a cruciform bayonet. I don't know that China ever fitted any flat-bladed type bayonets to their SKSs??? There should be enough markings present to give a positive I.D. on the country of origin; it's just a case of finding someone who knows what the markings mean. However, you have come to the right place and give it a few days, you should have an answer. My guess is Russia or Eastern Europe but not China; I stand to be corrected.
Another point which is so obvious I almost overlooked it, there appears to be no Chinese writing on your SKS and you haven't mentioned the presence of any. I do have a U.K. deactivated SKS which I know to be of Chinese origin are there most certainly is Chinese writing on it. I have already posted pictures of it on this Forum but I will do so again which may be helpful and of interest.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flying10uk
Early production Chinese SKS's, so called Sino-Soviet SKS's had blade bayonets and a fair number of them where built with left over parts from when Soviet production ended.
Your pics are not really comprehensive either...more typical flat side pics would help. Top, sides...
Here are some pictures of the top and back of the dust cover and one of the import stamp. I didn't take any pictures of the right side of the receiver because there weren't any markings, but I will put up a few more pictures in the morning.
There are no chinese symbols on the rifle
More pictures! Sides, top, one of the bottom (trigger guard/mag). If I can provide any clearer pictures or any of a particular area, please let me know! There really just aren't many markings at all other than the serial number and a couple poorly stamped markings around the where the barrel meets the receiver (pictures in the earlier post). There is a kinda blurry picture I posted earlier, it's the bottom of the barrel where it goes into the receiver, it looks like a backwards 3, followed by 1 6 0
That receiver looks to have been re-blued...the cover for sure and the flats of the receiver. The rest not so. I wonder...it would explain absence of number/letter...
You have a very early chinese SKS. About a year before the addition of the /26\ State Arsenal stamp and several years before the addition of 3-character "Type 56" designation stamp (五六式).
You have what is commonly referred to as a "Ghost Rifle". When these recent import Chinese rifles first began to appear in the US en masse via Albania (post 2010), collectors and and mil-surp enthusiasts had a difficult time identifying their national origin. With no Arsneal stamp to identify it as Soviet (tiny star on left side of reciever) and no State Arsenal stamp from China ( /26\ ), these serial-number-only rifles presented a bit of a mystery. No one knew if they were chinese or soviet made.
Because of the mystery regarding national origins, some collectors began referring to them as "Ghost Rifles". Many still use the term, despite the fact that it has been proven that they are Chinese guns (partially made in USSR and China). Some find the term "Ghost" annoying and misleading and refer to this early serial number pattern on Chinese SKS's as "serial number only" rifles. Which is boring, IMO.
The "Ghost" rifle serial range runs from around 2000 -- 213,000. Around the 213k serial range, the /26\ State Factory Stamp appears. Through extensive research, the date of the first /26\ stamp has been pinpointed to early 1957 (likely April when Jianshe /26\ became officially state owned).
Accordingly, your early 5 digit Ghost Rifle was likely between April and June of 1956...on of the first 15,000 Chinese SKS carbines.
It's a beautiful rifle. Appears to be all matching. The stock is in amazing condition, and likely refinished post import. But there is a possibility that it is an 'as-issued' carbine. Have you checked the bottom of the piston tube and the piston shaft itself to see if they still have the electro-penciled serial numbers?
I have two all matching Ghost Rifles in my collection. 187k and 210k serial number range, much later than yours. And though both of my stocks match, they aren't in nearly as good of condition...and I have no intention to refinish them.
I have to disagree with the above claim that the any part of this carbine has been reblued. It does not appear to have been reblued. Which doesn't mean it hasn't been retouched, but the photos don't seem to demonstrate rebluing. I have 7 early Type 56's at least four of them retain 75%-99% of their original bluing.
Great rifle. Nice get. Congrats.
Perhaps not, but it's harder to tell for sure through pics...Quote:
Originally Posted by Boris Badinov
You will find the most extensive and in depth study and research of the early Chinese SKS carbines here:
Dating The Chinese SKS - Chinese SKS Guide
Most of their work regarding dates, traits and origins is spot on and subtantially evidenced. Though there is still some debate regarding the dates and specifics of the Chinese "Letter Rifle" carbines.
Thanks to everyone for all the help and thank you Boris for all the great information and reading material!
I was initially disappointed that there were little markings on the gun. Nothing looks like it was ground off, but I was thinking it had been scrubbed somehow. I love these milsurps for their history and the arsenal markings are a neat feature to show people. But this is definitely cool in its own right. Can't wait to go shoot it!
I'll have to check the piston tube and shaft after work this afternoon for electro pencil marks.
It's not a matter of grinding. The polishing wheels are 240 or 400 grit or 555 for a high polish. If you use file and then machine paper, you can virtually make it blend clean and the layman won't see. You don't have to do the whole rifle either, and if it was done some time ago then natural wear will take place. Those are just facts. This rifle may well be what you now suspect, pictures are hard to judge by.Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisP
No worries too much either way for me. Not too worried about collector value, I didn't pay anything extra for it, and not planning on turning around and reselling it. Just happy to have a piece of history to own, shoot and enjoy!
Thanks again Jim for your help!
Interesting thread. I just pulled one out of my safe. It's sn. 9003937. It's near new factory original condition with a few handling marks in the wood. There's not a mark on it other than the serial number in all the pertinent places.
---------- Post added at 06:44 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:37 PM ----------
I see mine is a late export model.
After re-reading your original post and re-viewing all of your photos, I'm convinced that your rifle has not been altered in any way-- neither pre or post-import
The "I.O. Monroe, NC" import stamp identifies your rifle as an early 2013 import. Many of the large sellers (Classic, SOG, J&G, AIM etc) purchased these carbines in large quantities from the various importers.
None of these sellers put any effort into modifying or altering any of these guns. Essentially, your rifle has been sitting in a crate, covered in cosmoline since it was packed away into military storage years ago in Albania.
After examining your pictures in detailed high-magnification and with various filters, I see absolutely zero signs that your rifle has been sanded, refinished or reblued. In fact your stock looks like it could even be made of the same Arctic Birch that the Soviets used on the SKS-45's (on this observation I am less certain).
Though the condition of the Sino-Albanian cache of Chinese Type 56 carbines (and the Soviet Sneaks that accompanied them) varies widely to the extremes on both sides of the spectrum and in between, many of them are in amazingly robust condition both internally and externally. Which tells us much about the men (and women) to whom these rifles were issued. With no evidence of a contemporary, organized, small arms re-arsenal program in the Albanian military--the evidence suggests that, for the most part, the men and women of the Albanian armed forces were well trained in the care and maintenance of the rifles they were issued.
You, my friend got lucky. I can only assume that you paid the extra fee to SOG for the "hand select" option. If so, you were wise to do so...as the nominal extra charge makes a world of difference especially if you decide to sell at a later date.
If you're curious and want to know more, I strongly suggest signing up at the sks-files.com and the ak/sks collecting forum at gunboards.com . The creators of the Sks-files forum have put years of research and collected volumes of serial, feature and historical data to iron out much of the early and modern history of the SKS carbine. If you post this rifle on either of those forums, the members there will be able to tell you considerably more about your rifle and you will be able to peruse past threads and photos of rifles like yours. This will give a very good idea of how fortunate you are to have ended up with the rifle that you now have.
jealous.
Brian, thanks for stopping by! I purchased a Longbranch No. 4 Mk 1* from you in September of this year, you're the reason I came to this forum. Very thankful to you for that also!
Boris, I began browsing those pages you mentioned after your initial post and I am finding a ton of great information. The creator of the sks-files forum has a quite extensive survey on his weebly page that I am in the process of completing. I will be sending a photo of every mark, stamp, scratch or scar that is relevant along with the survey. I've never tried to take such detailed, close up photos of a gun before and I am only just realizing how poor the lighting in my house is for such things! I did pay the $10 hand pick fee to SOG as I do everytime I buy from them. Not sure how much of a difference it actually makes, as I have never *not* paid the hand pick fee. But I have received a couple beautiful rifles in the past from them and figure I'll just keep doing what I'm doing.
Also, I did check the gas tube and piston as you mentioned earlier and found they are both electropenciled with the matching S/N
Natural morning light seems to be the best for taking pics, it has a fuller spectrum. Near a window with adjustable blinds in case the light gets to bright. I like to use hardwood floor or natural wood planks for background. My Samsung android takes amazing high resolution photos.
Hi Boris, I joined recently and have posted pics of a 51 Tula in another thread.
It was imported by KBI. What do you know of them? Is it possible to date their imports?
Yes. KBI imported the SKS 45's from early 90's until 1996.Quote:
Originally Posted by datastreamcom
These guys have done a lot of research on the subject of the various importers.
KBI import stamps start at #10 on the list: List of Russian SKS45 Importers