1907 Bayonet Grips - Repair or replace?

One of the more difficult issues surrounding the restoration of any item is deciding, when a part needs attention, whether to repair or replace. I purchased a 1907 bayonet by Chapman at a militaria fair last year and, slightly embarrassingly, I didn't notice that someone had ground a slice out of the side of the cross guard, taking a little wood off one grip in the process. The reason why anyone would consider it necessary to grind the side of the cross guard is a complete mystery. I have built up the missing metal with weld, very carefully placed in the required place on the cross guard and then dressed back to size.

The dilemma which I have are the wood grips which, on one side, are damaged by the grinding of the cross guard and on the other, around the screw/nut counter bores. I have a pair of new old stock grips which I could use as replacements or I could try to tidy up the originals by taking a slither off the surface and then light sanding. With these grips I don't believe that I can remove all the damage by reducing the thickness because it will likely make them too thin.

I am open to suggestions and thoughts from members on whether it's better to replace the grips but lose the Patina/history or retain the originals, trying to make them look as best as possible, but having to put up with the obvious damage? I don't think that there is a right or a wrong answer here but I would appreciate a reason for answering in a particular way, please.

Thank-you for any advice.

My 1916 Chapman has pretty munted grips I too have spares and to put them on it would detract from its history and really make it look like I dunno a tarted up POS. But thats just me F10 its your bayonet.

Before I change anything I would consider how I would maintain the current grips with the piece. If they were going to be permanently separated and then lost to the bayonet I would leave them with it. However, not being a well versed student of the particular type of bayonet it does appear to me that the original grips may already be a replacement or already altered because of the lack of milling marks to the grips. You have mentioned a weld to the cross guard and if the subsequent repair requires additional work to blend the repair or a significant radical change to the entire appearance occurs I would use the new grip scales. Only you can decide, but if it were my project I would maintain the current grips and use the NOS replacements only in the case of significant damage or to replace a part that is not entirely serviceable.

I think that you've effectively answered your own question. You've fixed the bayonet. Why? - because it was was butchered and now it's fixed. Or it WILL be when you get it correctly blackened again. So what on earth would possess you to leave a set of old manky grips on it? So fix the grips too! Don't even bother using those modern repops. Just go out and find yourself a bit of old gnarled walnut and carefully make yourself another set that fit and slightly overlap the edges.

I'm of the old-time real Armourers school where what comes in the place only goes out perfect. Just like that bayonet would. It has absolutely no historical significance whatsoever, rare and valuable like that, it ain't - and those tatty old grips should be in the bin.

I hope others offer other opinions.

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Originally Posted by Flying10uk

I didn't notice that someone had ground a slice out of the side of the cross guard, taking a little wood off one grip in the process. The reason why anyone would consider it necessary to grind the side of the cross guard is a complete mystery.

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Perhaps they were grinding off one of those filthy hooked quillions...

Thanks Jim. That's the weird thing Jim, I should have really photographed the damage, the grinding was on the side of the cross guard. The worst of the damage was in-line with the damage that can be seen on the bottom grip on the right hand side, picture 1, post 1, where the grip is angled off. I can't work out how anyone could accidentally grind this or what reason there would be for deliberately doing so. I am pleased with the repaired cross guard which I have completed and re-blued this evening. I will post pictures later of this bayonet which has a blade in excellent condition.

Peter, why do yo say those grips are modern repros? I'm not suggesting that you are wrong but I was wondering how you could tell. I wondered why they weren't a great fit on the bayonet when I tried them for size this afternoon.

I can understand a car enthusiast wanting their vintage car to gleam like a 1000 suns and blind everyone including themselves as that is their passion besides who wants to ride around in a rust bucket that may be unsafe so we will chop the rust paint it up just like it left the factory that is fair enough my dad was the same when restoring cars for resale.

I feel the collectible military stuff should be left as it is preserving its history.

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Originally Posted by Flying10uk

the grinding was on the side of the cross guard.

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It's impossible to assess exactly what someone along the way had in mind when he was working on it. Hard to say what was happening.

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

I'm of the old-time real Armourers school where what comes in the place only goes out perfect. Just like that bayonet would. It has absolutely no historical significance whatsoever, rare and valuable like that, it ain't - and those tatty old grips should be in the bin.

I hope others offer other opinions.

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Pete, I like you. Would do exactly the same thing. I guess it is the ingrained training to just get on with a job that needs doing! Civilian Collector mentality is different to our way of thinking! I am not for one minute suggesting what they wold do is wrong at all. It's just not 'our' Way! Lol

There are many grips out on the collector circuits in the UK available. From many varied dealers. They are nearly all ex Australian war reserve stocks that were released when the rifles were. many years back now. You can easily spot these as they have the word 'Slazenger' stamped into the grip scales.
This is easily steamed out & rubbed down to make good. Not forgetting, that each pair of grips will in nearly all cases. NOT fit straight on the bayonet. But WILL require 'fitting'. In my opinion, this particular bayonet was so damaged as to become uninteresting to collectors as it was. Correctly profiled & restored, it now is more aesthetically pleasing to look at. AND has a higher value upon resale...Just my thoughts on this one. ;)

having mused on this, but this particular Bayonet MAY have had the 'grinding' effected. To clear/ fit over 'something' when hung on a wall?

I only thought of this option (3) today and that is to utilise some good 1907 grips currently, but incorrectly, fitted to a M1917 bayonet. I have been intending to either find some correct grips or make some with the double slots in the centre for this M1917 bayonet in any case. So it may be better to use what's on the M1917 on my 1907 bayonet and make or source the replacements for the M1917 because that needs them anyway. The 1907 would have good but Patinated grips.

Here are some pictures of the M1917 grips.

Any constructive thoughts appreciated, please.

You keep changing the goalposts..............

I only thought of this option today.

I would clean the whole bayonet up best i could, and just leave them be. It is what it is. But thats just me.

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Originally Posted by Flying10uk

I only thought of this option today.

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Why not just do what you want and show us after. That's what you'll do anyway...

I'm open to suggestions, but when I photograph the repaired bayonet, in a day or so, I may just photograph it with the various options of grip laid in because it doesn't have any grips fitted yet. The bayonet it's self is repaired it's just a case of deciding on which grips to fit.

Here are some pictures of the bayonet it's self, showing the repaired cross guard and the various grip options. I have only photographed the original grips fitted on both sides. Unfortunately I didn't think to photograph the damage to the cross guard before repair. The most amount of damage was in the area pointed out by the pen tip and this area required the most amount of weld applied. However the rest of the same side of the cross guard also required a thin layer of weld to bring up to correct level.

As can be seen, the blade is in very good condition for it's age. I may try to match the re-blued cross guard to the pommel, later.

I thought it read 1905! Looks like I would go with the new ones, they'll get broke in a little after being handled a bit.

F10, I've brought a few bayonets back from death row, sometimes just a little can make a huge difference, A 1903 I did some time back had one grip that was beyond repair but the other side was good, after a good clean come up well so decided just to replace the one side, pics below which am sure some have seen but a good example of what one home made grip can do.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...ccf78e14-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...248dbab3-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...78f0a15c-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...3ce1abee-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...6ea882f6-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...3673e13b-1.jpg

If you 'bone' the wood it closes the grain up tight and eliminates the 'newly-sanded' look. Alternatively you can use a coarse rag and brown furniture polish to buff the wood against the grain in a way that you'd polish the toe caps of your shoes/boots. But the usual good job Big Duke

It has been repaired and fiddled with already so i would fit the used 07 grips off the m17.
I would also polish back the new bluing to match the rest of the bayonet, but that is just me.

Btw cinders there is quite a folling for vintage cars with original paint even if it is worse for wear. For some people the more sunburnt the paint is the better. The last few shows i went to i didn't bother looking at 90% of the restored cars. I only looked at the original ones and the og paint modified ones.

When looking at vintage cars at shows, cars where the owner has paid a fortune to have new leather seat coverings made always seem to stand out and look out of place, somehow. I'm sure that they will look fine in 50 years time but somehow the new leather looks out of place in a car that may be more than 70 years old.

Thank-you to everyone for the responses and this is what I was hoping for when I started the thread, a debate on the pros and cons of repair or replacement.

I hadn't really thought about replacing just one grip but it's a valid point worth remembering, thanks.

Peter, what exactly do you mean by "bone the wood", please?

Bone the wood is to ply the wood butt, fore-end or in this case, the grips with linseed and using another harder piece of wood - we always used a second chamber stick called the boning stick - rub the hardwood up and down, over the wood. It smooths the wood and closes up the open grain. But you have to be careful not to let the boning stick round off any edges etc etc. Or in the case of new bayonet grips, not to let it distort the grip screw holes. Gives the wood a distinct smooth sheen. Coarse cloth and wax furniture polish does the same. The latter was told to me by a furniture restorer who uses it when restoring.......... er......., old furniture!

This is doing it literally but I see Peters way of being easier to accomplish otherwise there may be a spate of dead animals missing bones..........
https://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&r...44224172,d.dGc

I've done it with a dissimilar hardwood before too.

I always used a 1/2 Lb Hammer Wooden shaft. Or as Peter & I would refer to them as, Hammer, Armourers, Ball Pain!.....:D

Due to some of the contours on the handle, it made it easier to use. In curved & shaped areas on The Weapon Furniture.

Also, being thicker, You could use more downwards pressure if needed.

The Wooden Chamber stick as Peter also states. Was useful for getting in smaller areas, & had the benefit of being easier to control. In tight areas.

I always finished off with fine wire wool overall. Which gave a sateen smooth finish. & then Boiled linseed oil to complete the task! (NEVER use Linseed that has NOT been boiled first!!!) :eek:

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Originally Posted by tankhunter

I always used a 1/2 Lb Hammer Wooden shaft.

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There we go, I only knew it seemed to work.