Lithgow No1Mk3 Questions

Hey guys,

I just picked up a matching numbers (as far as I can tell) 1941 Lithgow. I have a few questions:

1. The previous, previous, owner removed a green paint stripe off the wrist of the stock. I've read this indicated the rifle was a cadet rifle. Is that correct? If so, would the rifle still have seen service in WWII in the Army, or did they go straight to cadet schools?

2. The magazine in this thing is very loose (and I don't think it is original to the rifle). It sounds like a tin can jangling when you pick the rifle up. The movement is side to side mostly, however there is front to back movement as well. I pulled a mag out of another one of my No1Mk3's and it locked up tight with no movement. Any advice on what to do besides buying a different mag?

3. What was the original stock finish on Lithgow Enfields? The wood on this one looks yellow and dry. It is the original stock though. Is there anything I can do to freshen it up? (I am anti-sanding, refinishing, etc.) Would pure tung oil work? These things are getting old enough that we need to maintain the wood a little bit. What would you Enfield aficionados recommend?

Thanks for your thoughts!
JakeAttachment 99596Attachment 99597Attachment 99598

Regarding the woodwork, Lithgow stocked the majority of its rifles with coachwood.

I think originally treated with creosote?

I would treat the woodwork with raw Linseed oil to nourish it.

If the magazine is loose, pop out the spring/platform and carefully apply pressure to both sides until the mag fits snugly in the well, a tiny adjustment will do it.

I made a simple wooden wedge for the job, make sure you don't damage the tabs while doing it though.

Looks like a nice original Lithgow....

The green stripe is OK to fire. Pity it was removed as that was part of the rifles history. Yes it would have seen service somewhere in WW2 before it was issued to a cadet unit unpainted.

hi all i do to remove the old finish is spray the wood with oven cleaner leave for 15 minutes and wash off with a old toothbrush hang in the sun to dry if there are any repairs to do now is the time to do it give it a light sand with a fine sand paper then oil

Skip the sanding.

They were issued "finished" but not exactly "French Polished". Being "textured / grippy" was a feature, not a bug. Remember, the initial primary role of rifles in the olden days was as a bayonet extension, (note the shape of the wrist of the butt). The ability to fire lots of bullets quickly and accurately was a secondary feature that clogged up the logistic trains with heavy boxes of ammunition..

In service, the wood often became a very dark "chocolate brown" from constant handling and bathing in oil and more handling. "Hand-rubbed", as it were. Grubby, soldierly hands, generally.

Avoid the use of any caustic chemicals (like oven cleaner) on the woodwork. Whilst they will remove the "character" from the timber, they will get into dark places where it will start nasty things happening to the metal components.

If you MUST strip it right down, there are several articles hereabouts on the correct sequence; like REMOVE THE FORE_END BEFORE attempting to remove the butt. Also, the thread-end of the retaining screw in the outer (front) band is STAKED on an original build / correct repair. It MUST be "de-staked" (partially drilled out) before removal or, as it is being wound out, it will cheerfully destroy the thread in the outer band, spectacularly so if the band is a WW2 brass one. The old screw is discarded and a new one installed. Don't stake it, unless you have a steady supply of new ones; there's this stuff called LOCTITE... (290, after assembly, is good)

The gentle way to clean the woodwork :

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Alan de Enfield

The gentle way to clean the woodwork :

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That's hilarious, only a Labrador!
My mates Lab once opened the oven door and took the roast chicken ... His cat might possibly have been involved in a rare moment of cooperation, but his involvement was never proved and he let the dog take the wrap!

Heartbreaking story fellas.

Took my new Lithgow to my cabin and shot four shots out of it. Somehow the forestock cracked in a severe way. My loads were very modest and showed no pressure signs. I think I just had some unseen damage already in the wood. There are two brass pins right in front of the bolt handle. The wood cracked there, and it cracked from the main screw all the way up a few inches into the forend. Also, the stock "spread" out around the action. And the little block of wood that's inside between the buttstock socket and the trigger group cracked enough to be pulled out as one block. Also, there is no wood between the main screw and the magazine well.

Long story short, I just ordered some acraglass... gonna try get this puppy put back together.

Sounds like the Butt has been removed before the forend. The draws are buggared. This is not just a reglue fix.

Bindi2 can you elaborate? I hadn’t removed either piece of wood before I shot it. What does the butt have to do with the forend since they are separated by the butt socket?

OP

Order of operations for disassembly. Someone before you took it apart improperly. See attachment

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jakebevt48

Bindi2 can you elaborate? I hadn’t removed either piece of wood before I shot it. What does the butt have to do with the forend since they are separated by the butt socket?

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The bolt holding the Butt in place has a square end, it goes thru' the Butt-Socket and into a slot in the forend wood.
If the butt is removed first then the 'squares' of the bolt force the sides of the forend 'slot' open and split the wood, resulting in the damage you describe.


With an Enfield you NEVER remove the butt first - when 'stripping down', always start at the muzzle and work backwards.

don’t right it off it is repairable

The correct piece of wood is U shaped so there is equal force on both sides of the forend when hit. Cut the block to fit. When the forend is replaced it should snap into place. The square end to the bolt was cut off in later rebuilds to allow for shrinkage of the butt allowing easier tightening procedures using a spring washer to keep the bolt tight.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bindi2

The correct piece of wood is U shaped so there is equal force on both sides of the forend when hit. Cut the block to fit. When the forend is replaced it should snap into place. The square end to the bolt was cut off in later rebuilds to allow for shrinkage of the butt allowing easier tightening procedures using a spring washer to keep the bolt tight.

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Good point.
The forend must be removed by 'tapping' down near the butt-socket.
I have seen folks grab the barrel in one hand, and the forend in the other and pull them apart like the 'Turkey's Wishbone' - with pretty much the same result (except it was probably not what they wished for)

While I’m fixing all of this stuff, is there anywhere it is good to glass bed on an Enfield stock?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jakebevt48

While I’m fixing all of this stuff, is there anywhere it is good to glass bed on an Enfield stock?

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I'm sure Peter will remember this 'modern way of bedding' using beer cans and credit cards, from a well known 'expert' * on another forum.

* Ex - as in a 'has-been' & Spurt - a drip under pressure.

New to the site; been picking up a few Enfields here and there.
2 Lithgow III*s
Rifle 1 - 1942 - with armorers mark of MA R 5/46 on the buttstock.
Not an FTR, but fairly extensive refurbish. Forend, fore and rear upper wood was all replaced with SLAZ46 with recoil plates. Nose cap and leaf sight are not serialized (replaced with OA "Orange Armory" parts), but no "R" stamp on the receiver indicating a barrel replacement. The barrel has a different SN starting with a W and no replacement date. This would indicate that this is a UK and not a Lithgow barrel.... pristine bore.
Question to the guru's is
#1 Was replacement of barrel normally done with barell from another rifle? and is W a replacement SN from OA?
#2 Are the copper recoil pads common or necessary on the SLAZ furniture. I read that this was a corrective mod on the coachwood furniture and SLAZ didn't need them..... Or was it common place for the armorer's to apply the mod regardless of the furniture? Pictures to follow

Rifle 2 - 1941 DD (Nock's form stamp indicates Department of Defense)
Nose cap, bolt, and receiver S/N match. Didn't realize the relevance of JJCO issues until after the purchase was made. But it doesn't look to be all that bad (I hope)
All furniture was replaced with SLAZ42/43 and is in near new condition... (I don't think it has seen a drop of linseed oil yet) So that being said, I have lost any armorer markings that could have shed light on the history of this rifle. The fore-end is also missing the traditional recoil pads, which I read was part of the issue with JJCO frankensteining Lithgow III*'s and advertising as never issued.
Leaf sight and guards look to be brand new OA (surplus). Upon disassembly for inspection (sorry Old Marine, it's a habit to insure everything is where it is suppose to be and there are no welds, cuts or other unforeseen SNAFU's to encounter).
Barrel is S/N matched but has a date of 11/61 on it, looking like it was replaced..... but by whom? It looks to have the star A I and star A II stamps; so the barell looks legit. I am figuring that the buttstock markings would have answered this.
She's a beautiful specimen, but may not be worth what I paid.
Questions on this one:
#1 Barrel is stamped like it's a replacement. Would a refurb not mark a replacement of the barrel and that normally marked during FTR?
There are no markings for FTR, but also no "R" for a barrel replacement. However, the barell is stamped with the S/N, and shows 11/61 above it with additional Australian markings. Pristine bore on this one also.
#2 question from above also applies concerning recoil pads. If they are necessary on SLAZ furniture also, does anyone have a resource on diagrams to make them, or a source to purchase them to install?
Pictures to follow

Any assistance would be greatly appreciated.
GySgt S.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by GySgt-6469

Any assistance would be greatly appreciated.

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Rifle 2

If the serial number has a prefix letter it is virtually guaranteed to be a Lithgow manufactured rfle.
If the serial number has a suffix letter (probably an "A") is it virtually guaranteed to be a JJ 'Frankenstein put-together' with no quality control.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Alan de Enfield

Rifle 2

If the serial number has a prefix letter it is virtually guaranteed to be a Lithgow manufactured rfle..

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SN Prefix C.... I figured those were right from the JJCO articles. My concern was the barrel, but it is a C also, just no rebarrel mark. But it has some other markings I am unfamiliar with. One looks like a '44 mark (first image).

I also noticed some bafoon sanded the buttstock - AGAINST the grain. I figure that I am going to have to work through a slurry mix of linseed oil and light steel wool to rub in and get it to fill those scratches.
I wish people who didn't understand vintage firearms and basic wood working would leave well enough alone.


RIFLE 2 Images
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Rifle 1
Q1. The Aussies are pretty miserable good parts were reused. W is not an OA or Lithgow serial number
Q2 Slaz only used coachwood so plates are required.

R depending on the style can also mean rust.
MA R 5/46 means that is when the rifle was returned to stores after FTR/over haul.
7/44 is the barrel manufacture date.

Thank you for the info.
No R's visible, and I would have been on the look for the unservicable marks. Rust was usually that Scripted R wasn't it?
I'll have to take R1 to the range and see how accurate this W barrel is. Bore looks really nice, round check on the muzzle looks like she still has some life left in her and hasn't been shot out.
R2 will have to wait until I can find or fabricate some plates.
I found on the schematics on Numrich and BRP sites, the copper plates and screws, however neither have them; and they haven't responded to any inquires on it. Other than finding a trashed MkIII forend to salvage from, does anyone know of a source for them, or should they be pretty easy to fabricate?

Since Century bought out Springfield Sporters you could try them. Seems like they are slowly rolling out parts (using Springfield Sporters photos).


Parts - Surplus Corner

Hoosier Gun Works lists them, but no the screws. Will contact them and repost findings.