Enfields and L designations

[Nickjc]

Hi all

I am used to seeing enfields as no4m1 or other designation with numer/mark

but how and when do L designations come in an how do they apply to Enfield Rifles? Is that just a Modern designation post WWII?

Information

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[Badger]

Here's an associated piece of information in regards to Enfield markings in general, which I thought might add some research value to this thread ...

See Comment #2 by Advisory Panel member Son, in this typical entry for a Lee Enfield Rifle in the MKL.

Milsurps - 1907 ShtLE (Short Lee-Enfield) MkI*** Rifle

Extracted here for use in this thread ….

2. The terminology for the new SMLE rifle introduced in 1907 was the Short, Magazine Lee Enfield Rifle MkIII. It followed the Short, Magazine Lee Enfield Rifle Mk1 which had been introduced in 1903. Both of these were new made rifles. In between them was the Short, Magazine Lee Enfield MkII Cond. This model was a conversion from earlier “Long Lee Enfields” to the current “Short rifle” pattern. There were also subsequent mods to the Mk1 (right up to early WW1) and MkIII (to MkIII*) as well as other conversions which I won’t go into, but suffice to say, Britain had a lot of rifles that were basically the same, but differed in a lot of ways. Because of this a decision was made to standardise the small arms and their nomenclature in 1926. It was decided that all rifles must comply with the latest pattern. It was to become the Rifle, No1 MkIII(*). There is several entries in the “List Of Changes to British war Material” that Ian Skennerton summarised on page 172 of “The Lee Enfield Story”. His notes read…

The nomenclature of British service small arms and some other equipment was changed and updated on 31st May 1926 so as to simplify the ever-increasing number or marks and such variation in the war material. The List Of Changes announcements, A1536- A1690, run to many pages and an update is also provided in this LoC reference as to the items then classed as being obsolete, obsolescent, omitted from Vocabulary or with any changes in designation, along with the appropriate cross reference paragraphs in previous List of Changes entries.

Such changes applicable to this study are;

Rifle, Short, MLE MkIII to Rifle No1 MkIII
Rifle, Short, MLE MkIII* to Rifle No1 MkIII*
Rifle D.P., Short, MLE to Rifle No1 D.P.
Rifle, E.Y. Short, MLE to Rifle No1 E.Y.
Rifle, Short, .22 RF MkIV to Rifle No2 MkIV*
Rifle, Magazine, .303-in Patt’ 14:
MkI Ww/fine adjustment sight to Rifle No3 Mk1*(F)
MkI* W (T) to Rifle No3 MkI* (T)
Rifle, Short, .22in RF:
Sight auxiliary, aperture, MkI to Sight auxiliary, MkI


The following are listed as being obsolete:

Rifles, Charger-Loading, MLE
Rifles, MLE
Rifles, MLM
Rifles, Long .22-in RF MkII

Those rifles omitted from Vocabulary but retained in store for possible future requirements were:

Rifles, Short, MLE:-
MarkI
MarkI*
MarkI***
Converted MarkII
Converted MarkII*
Converted MarkIV

You can see from the bottom group that all of these rifle models were NOT to be included in the new Vocabulary. The official book, the “List of Changes to British War Material” makes a point of saying so. They would have continued to be known as their original designations.

I do feel that for an educational tool, the Milsurp Knowledge Library, potentially, has no equal in range or depth of material. I think it is up to us to try to keep it as factual as possible so as not to knowingly promote misunderstanding or misinformation. ..... (Feedback by MILSURPS.COM Advisory Panel Member "Son")

Regards,
Doug

[Peter Laidler]

Good question Nick. I don't know anything back beyond the usual No4 Mk1/2 type markings except that in 1956 those type of markings had become a bit of a nightmare with, take Bren magazines, you'd get Mk3/2 and then there was the alternative Mk3** where the star indicated a sub variant and so on. It had to stop so the L (supposedly for LAND) and A sub type nomenclature came into service, starting with the RIFLE, 7.62mm, L1 followed by the sub type, this being the A1 variant.

It's much easier now to identify, say, the Sterling SMG's by being an L2A1 type or A2 type or A3 type, all being sub variations of the main L2.

However, that system has fallen by the wayside recently (or more accurately described as 'fallen into a bit of dispute.....') because some bits of kit would appear to have been 'double booked' - in that some items that are not in themselves small arms seem to have collected a small arms L number. Indeed, some have been 'double booked' almost by design, as though someone wasn't looking or not keeping their eye on the ball. For example, the RIFLE, 7.62mm L8A2 carries the same L marker as the GUN, Machine Tank, 7.62mm L8A2 And the L14 is the old M8C .50 spotting rifle, as in RIFLE, spotting L14A1 and lo and behold, there's another RIFLE .22" sub calibre (Tk) L14A1

Thinking out aloud, while we just got used to it all, maybe there could have been a better 'joined-up' system but it still seems just as muddled

Anyway, that's the long and short of it