Question regarding CR and ER prefixed ShtLEs.

[Anzac15]

Having just acquired a 1905 CR prefixed ShtLE MkI***, I was wondering if anyone knew when these were issued to Irish troops? During the Great War, or after the 1921 partition? If after 1921, why are these not marked Fianna Fail? Or were these strictly for regular Irish regiments under British command? This is the second such rifle I've owned, and am trying to get an idea if this rifle was indeed used in the First World War and or when it would have received its new serial number. Any thoughts on this would be appreciated. Thanks!

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[jrhead75]

They were issued during the Irish Civil War, IMO. They aren't marked Fianna Fail, because they were on the other (winning) side of the war. DeValera's Fianna Fail (as a political party) didn't come to power until the early '30s.

[Frederick303]

This is one of the areas I am interested in and have done some research on the topic. Most of my posts on the topic are on Gunboards under the name “Fritz”. The research is by no means complete, but here is what is known at present

The evidence for when the British supplied the Irish republic with the No 1 MK I*** rifles is not exact. The best documentary evidence is that they were supplied by the British late in the civil war conflict, around June-July of 1922. These arms were supplied after the Irish Free State asked for more arms during the later portion of the civil war. The total quantity supplied in 1922 seems to have been around 10,000 rifles in this shipment, though that does not mean all 10,000 were CR and ER rifles. This interpretation seems to be backed up by the photographic evidence, as the MK I variant does not really show up in pictures until that time and they are quit common in various 1939_1945 Emergency pictures. There are also shots from 1939 prewar that show the ER pattern of rifle in use. Shots of the CR rifle are very rare. There is no record to show such rifles were supplied to Ireland post 1925

The problem with this interpretation is the serial range for these rifles is much larger then 10,000 rifles, more like 15,000. Yet the quantities of No 1 MK III rifles received do not allow for more then 10,000 of this pattern to have been received by the Free State, with a minimum of 5,000 being a possible figure. Actually 10,000 seems like the right figure, at least based on what I have seen so far. The number disposed of in sales to the US in 1961 was 4,105 rifles. It is known that a large number of unserviceable No1 pattern rifles were disposed of in 1965~1966 by dumping in the Irish Sea, it is likely that most of the excess rifles above this quantity were so dumped. Very few No 1 MK III rifles were so dumped, or so the sales records would seem to indicate.

There is no evidence that the CR and ER pattern rifles were used by anyone but the Irish. In particular the CR pattern of rifle does not appear in the official records as a UK recognized pattern.

A small number of SMLE MK I rifles appear in the photographic record earlier then that, though they are generally in 1 or 2 rifles per picture. There is one very troublesome picture to the above interpretation, filmed in 1921 at the site of the initial fighting in Dublin. One unclear shot seems to suggest that the soldier has a CR rifle based on the nosecap. If true it would make the above interpretation incorrect.

[Anzac15]

Thanks to you both. It is also my understanding that the majority of the CR rifles did not retain a lot of the original MkI features. (new nose cap, no volley sights, etc) This CR retains all of them except for new rear sight and no volley sight arm.

---------- Post added at 03:36 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:33 PM ----------

I have pictures of this rifle on this forum if interested in looking. Posted them a couple of days ago.

[jrhead75]

Coogan's book on the Irish civil war has got at least one clear picture of several MkI***s in action during the civil war, dated I believe, 1923. I've found one picture in the same book of a rifle that appears to be a possible CR type rifle...MkIII configuration with a MkI nosecap.

It would be interesting to know the time span that the FF mark was in use...certainly not likely beginning until 1932 when DeValera took power.

[Anzac15]

Very possibly. The last FF LE I had was a 1916 BSA with a 1932 dated barrel. Also marked FF.