Sniper magazine sling swivels

[PrinzEugen]

I've read the many posts on this forum concerning the sniper swivels in front of the magazine but there was one answer which was elusive concerning pre Sept 1944 rifles

To quote a sentence in the excellent is my lee enfield sniper rifle a fake? piece by Terry Warner

If there is an angular sling swivel on the takedown screw in front of the magazine, this is a sign, A) the rifle was either produced after September 1944, B) it left British military sometime near then, or C) someone has ‘improved’ the rifle. A considerable number of civilian Parker Hale target shooting swivels change hands on the internet, regardless of appropriateness for the year of No.4(T) production.

Does that mean pre Sept 44 other things were used? Eg non angular swivels or just a screw?

Information

Warning: This is a relatively older thread This discussion is older than 360 days. Some information contained in it may no longer be current.

[jmoore]

No swivel, just the forward action screw. Many swivels were later fitted to rifles still in service as part of the EMERs. I'm guessing retrofits probably started in earnest around 1949. Mr. Laidler is the final word here, though!

[218bee]

I have two 1943 T rifles..one early, (AK prefix) and one late (AV prefix)...The AK has no king screw swivel, while the AV does.....Neither rifle has any FTR marks....I personally treat the king screw swivel as an add-on goodie, not "correct" or "incorrect"...Just one of those things, I guess..


Yes, Peter, do chime in......

218bee

[jmoore]

I'm sure the swival could be added at the local level, rather than at full overhaul. The only "wrong" thing to do at this point would be to remove the swivel (if of correct original make) to make a rifle more WWIIish!

[Peter Laidler]

All the No4T rifles were slowly modified with the front trigger guard swivel as a result of snipers being taught to use the single point sling method as an alternative to the well established top and bottom sling loop method. In wartime, a rifle could go for years without going to an Armourers shop or even being noticed, especially if the sniper didn't know or didn't use the front trigger guard sling swivel. So both with or without are correct. The same goes for cheek rests on the earliest No4T's. With or without are both correct.

I suppose that if you had an original rifle, straight from the battlefield in Italy, fitted with a long Bren webbing sling (which was well liked, taught and used more often than not....) then THAT would be original too.

But, be warned, there are two sorts of front trigger guard swivel. The VAOS part (that's the Army spec one) has a short shank that will not allow the swivel to rotate a full circle as it get stopped by the cover loop on the trigger guard. The commercial sling loops have a longer shank that clears the loop.

As for the cover loop on the trigger guard, then while I insisted that they were present, other armourers, some senior and some junior, said that it was academic and didn't mind either way............... The reason for NOT replacing them was that a change of trigger guard meant that you had to spend the next couple of hours re-setting up the trigger pull-offs! Some say that about 50 percent of the L42's disposed of didn't have the loop......

[Badger]

But, be warned, there are two sorts of front trigger guard swivel. The VAOS part (that's the Army spec one) has a short shank that will not allow the swivel to rotate a full circle as it get stopped by the cover loop on the trigger guard. The commercial sling loops have a longer shank that clears the loop.

To build upon Peter's comments there's some interesting feedback from collectors (including Peter), about swivels in various Knowledge Library entries. For example, check this on on the 1944 C No.7 .22 Caliber Lee-Enfield Training Rifle (click here) , which is also duplicated in the 1945 No.4(T) Long Branch sniper article (click here).

You have to check on these rifles if the military version (doesn't swivel 360) was swapped out for the PH version (se below), which is taller and swivels 360 degrees.

(Click PIC to Enlarge)

(Click PIC to Enlarge)

Regards,
Badger

[Maple_Leaf_Eh]

I'm glad it has helped another student of the No.4. As was common a while ago on another forum, never say never with Lee Enfields.

The on-line article is based on writings and posts found on the interweb up to the data posted. As always happens with historical research, more and better information will appear immediately after publication. The other fact, is that article has been proven to contain errors. The paragraphs on Savage rifles in particular need updating.

[PrinzEugen]

I suppose that if you had an original rifle, straight from the battlefield in Italy, fitted with a long Bren webbing sling (which was well liked, taught and used more often than not....) then THAT would be original too.

I love stuff like that - "you must have the correct leather 1907 sling or it's not proper" - but snipers (you know snipers, the guys who actually were using the guns) in the field liked the bren sling - there you go eh!

Thanks guys as well for the really interesting and helpful answers.

I expect a run on bren slings now!

[neal455]

Got one ordered!!!!

[218bee]

Here's a British Army issue king swivel, off T rifle serial AV364x....Very different from the above Parker Hale....Sits almost flush on top of the trigger guard...swivel has limited range of motion due to the wire loop on TG...

enjoy...

218bee