Belgian MH.

[read6737]

What can any one tell me about Belgian made MHs.
I have what I think is a Mk 111 dated 1886.
It looks just like my Mk 1V but with a very slightly different but stock profile.

Information

Warning: This is a relatively older thread This discussion is older than 360 days. Some information contained in it may no longer be current.

[read6737]

Just thought I would get this back to the top as
the post Thursday delivery of a Martini 'Muscate'.
by Anzac15 raises the topic of the Belgian MHs.

any one care to tell me more about them?

[Patrick Chadwick]

I have only once been able to inspect a Belgian M-H, which was made by Francotte, as it was being used in a French BP competition. The quality was excellent, but that is not a blanket approval of all Belgian M-Hs, just an observation from personal experience.

Whatever you do, do not buy an M-H solely on the basis of photos. The market is awash with Nepalese of very variable condition and quality, hand-carved Khyber Pass copies, Indian examples that may have a conglomeration of parts ...and just once in a while, a good, genuine example.
In short, hands-on inspection is mandatory for a Martini-Henry.

It took me 4 years to find a good one, and it was sitting in a rack next to a fake that was suspicious because the markings were too good to be true (photo-etched, I think!) On photos alone, I might have judged the fake to be the better one!

[Anzac15]

I second what Patrick just said. The number of 'Khyber' copies at the guns shows here now are staggering. I mean they're everywhere! And yes, the markings on them are getting better. That said, in regards to the differences in Belgian and English MHs, they appear to be small. I put my Muscat next to my British MkII, and it does appear that the receiver and the cocking lever seem to be, well, smaller. Not by much, though. Also, the shape of the lever on the Belgian version seems to be shaped a tad differently.
Quality of the Belgian version? I can only say that mine looks to have been through hell and high water, but it still seems very tight and very well made. I can only imagine what it was like when it was new. Had to have been an extremely dependable and accurate little carbine. I would love to see pics of yours, although I suspect yours is probably a 'Khyber' version. You mentioned a date of 1886..I've seen tons of these copies with that date on it. Is it .303? I bought a copied carbine last year just to add to the collection as an example, it was .303, and 1886 was stamped all over it. From a distance you couldn't tell the difference, that's how good the markings were. Then you get it apart......

---------- Post added at 11:50 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:42 PM ----------

Also, I failed to mention that my Muscat carbine was/is a commercial variant. In fact, most of the Belgian MHs I've seen (which have not been many) have been commercial models. And all of those have had a Francotte action. This one does not. It has the cocking indicator, and field strips just like the British version.

[TheDoubleD]

There is nothing wrong withthe Belgian Martini's. The are every bit as good as the British guns.

You do not have a Mk III made in Belgium. The Mk III is a sealed pattern of the British Military Martini Henry. You may have a Belgium made Martini built to resemble the British MKIII but it is not a MKIII.

[read6737]

Hay now we are off to a good start.

First I made a mistake the date is 1884 not 1886 as I said in my first post. ( I had 1886 on the mind at the time I think as it is the year of the first smokeless round and it was a French one )
I had to replace the firing pin and the rear sight.
I replaced them with british MH ones from a uk dealer.
They fitted first time no problems.
I went to add a trigger guard sling mount, but it will not fit
as the guard has a slightly different profile, it is very nicely rounded.
It is a short lever.and has the thumb rest on the top of the block.
I will take a few pics when I can, the markings are well worn
so not sure how well they will show up.
I bought it from a French dealer at an arms fair here in France.
He goes to the uk to buy arms, he only knew it was a MH,
it was in a bad state and cost me 125 euros 100 qiud at that time.

[Patrick Chadwick]

Looks like "Fabrique Liegois des Armes de Guerre", i.e. the Liege factory that became FN (Fabrique Nationale des Armes de Guerre)
But according to my information (Greenhill) this company was officially formed on 3. July 1889, somewhat late to be making Martinis, and indeed the company was primarily set up to manufacture the Mauser 1889 model to re-equip the Belgian army.
Maybe the name was in use before? Francotte was perhaps the most prominent Belgian manufacturer at the time, had shares in the new company (later sold to Mauser or Loewe, I think) and certainly made Martinis. You are going to have to search carefully for other marks.

Update: it appears that Francotte was still making sporting Martinis in the 1900s. We really need overall photos and detail photos of any markings.

[Anzac15]

Wow! That's really unusual..I've never seen that before.
Yes, please, more pics!

[read6737]

Taken a few pics.
Sorry not very good with a digital camera.
The only mark I can find without taking it to bits is one
on the top of the barrel that looks like a 23. In the last pic.

[gsimmons]

Is it the rare carbureted model MH?