Lee Enfield No4 Mk1 rifle markings "Help"

[DannyJ]

Hi all, This is my first post on this forum, so Hello fellow collectors

I have recently purchased a Lee Enfield No4 Mk1 rifle. I am very happy with the rifle, but there are a couple of markings that I cannot identify.

I have researched through my Enfield books, online etc, and cannot find real damning evidence of what they are.

I would really love to finish the historic story of this rifle if i can and am hoping one of you will be able to help me solve the puzzle



Here is what I DO know.



It was made in MALTBY 1942 and has the correct AA serial number that corresponds with that time. (early- mid 1942)

the other markings are:

The british standalone broad arrow

the GR below a crown with the crossed flags and letter P at bottom

VNS on the ring of the foreend (VINERS ltd)

S.L on the forend near the underside of muzzle (william sykes ltd)

another marking on under side of the stock HM Co ltd (Hobson & Mathers)



The bolt does not match the serial number on the attached picture, and thats ok.

But the rifle is a textbook example of British made using the dispersal or Decentralization method of wartime manufacture, Where multiple company's around UK send parts to MALTBY to be assembled, then shipped out. So we know where it was born and who most likely had it first.



Now , the only marks i cannot identify is a : N ontop of the number 76' Which also looks like its inside a chess looking piece outline.



On investigation there are 2 companies with the same name, that used the same code N76 : TEMPERED SPRINGS. One in NSW and one in SHEFFIELD.

It does NOT look like an aussie refurb marking that i have seen??



ALSO



A mark on the receiver that is a: C on top of a 2, inside a circle.



Again this does not fit with any CANADIAN proof stamps i have seen.





Please could you take a look at the attachments and let me know if you have seen any of these before...

Hoping for this last piece of knowledge about this fascinating rifle.

Thankyou very much

Danny

[Alan de Enfield]

Quality inspectors stamps (to show that part had passed)

[DannyJ]

Ah Hi Alan, thankyou for taking the time to respond to my post, much appreciated

I think i may have found an answer through Ai of all things!!

this is what it said about the circle stamps..


But still interested if you have more info about the 76 Alan? or if you have seen them before?

[Alan de Enfield]

The markings of a number under a crown, often including a letter are the individual inspectors ID number. There will (should) be a number of them on every rifle.
The 'lower' the letter and number the more senior the inspector.

Here is an example from the armoures instructions :

Look at illustration No1 and read description No1

[Sapper740]

Just to add a little bit to A de E's comments, the 1,000+ WWII suppliers were differentiated by their geographical location in the British Isles with three different prefixes: 'N' for factories or shops in the northern parts of the British Isles, 'M' for the Midlands. and 'S' for the south of England.

[Alan de Enfield]

Just to add a little bit to A de E's comments, the 1,000+ WWII suppliers were differentiated by their geographical location in the British Isles with three different prefixes: 'N' for factories or shops in the northern parts of the British Isles, 'M' for the Midlands. and 'S' for the south of England.

Yes there are other markings but they are not supplanted by a crown.

Here is a post I wrote some years ago regarding the 'secret' marking system.

History of Wartime Factory Codes



Prior to WW2 Germany were (obviously) aware of what was going to happen and they sent 1000's of Hitler Youth (as fruit pickers, walkers / hikers, students) to the UK to map and list everything that could be a military target, Railway stations, airports. reservoirs, manufacturing companies, steel works, water pumping stations, power stations, etc etc etc. They were also instructed to buy any, and every, map they could find, from Survey maps to tourist guides to the AA Road maps.

There was a very interesting documentary series on TV some years ago which covered it in detail

These sites were all mapped out back in Germany so Germany knew exactly the location of all factories capable of building war material, but - did not know what they were actually making.

When the bombing started someone realised that the Germans would know exactly where (say) the BSA factory was, and if any soldiers were captured carrying rifles marked BSA then the Germans knew where it was & could bomb it out of existence.

To help disguise who was making what the country was split into 3 parts :

North = Code N
Midlands = Code M
South = Code S

All factories were given a number and depending on their location would have the prefix N. M or S

So, BSA became M47 (Factory number 47 in the Midlands)

About the same time the instruction came down that manufacturers must disperse their production, as one bomb on one factory could stop production totally.

BSA opened several new dispersal factories (these factories were sub-factories to the main M47 factory) making all sorts of components, which were then brought together at a single assembly factory.

We now have :
M47 (Mother factory)

and daughter plants based out in the areas surrounding Birmingham

M47A = ‘Small Heath’ factory
M47B = ‘Redditch’ factory
M47C = ‘Shirley’ factory


Example : M47A produced the 'woodwork' (RIfle furniture) whilst M47C was the final assembly plant for the Lee Enfield Rifles.

There is a little bit of history for you.

[DannyJ]

Yes there are other markings but they are not supplanted by a crown.

Here is a post I wrote some years ago regarding the 'secret' marking system.

History of Wartime Factory Codes



Prior to WW2 Germany were (obviously) aware of what was going to happen and they sent 1000's of Hitler Youth (as fruit pickers, walkers / hikers, students) to the UK to map and list everything that could be a military target, Railway stations, airports. reservoirs, manufacturing companies, steel works, water pumping stations, power stations, etc etc etc. They were also instructed to buy any, and every, map they could find, from Survey maps to tourist guides to the AA Road maps.

There was a very interesting documentary series on TV some years ago which covered it in detail

These sites were all mapped out back in Germany so Germany knew exactly the location of all factories capable of building war material, but - did not know what they were actually making.

When the bombing started someone realised that the Germans would know exactly where (say) the BSA factory was, and if any soldiers were captured carrying rifles marked BSA then the Germans knew where it was & could bomb it out of existence.

To help disguise who was making what the country was split into 3 parts :

North = Code N
Midlands = Code M
South = Code S

All factories were given a number and depending on their location would have the prefix N. M or S

So, BSA became M47 (Factory number 47 in the Midlands)

About the same time the instruction came down that manufacturers must disperse their production, as one bomb on one factory could stop production totally.

BSA opened several new dispersal factories (these factories were sub-factories to the main M47 factory) making all sorts of components, which were then brought together at a single assembly factory.

We now have :
M47 (Mother factory)

and daughter plants based out in the areas surrounding Birmingham

M47A = ‘Small Heath’ factory
M47B = ‘Redditch’ factory
M47C = ‘Shirley’ factory


Example : M47A produced the 'woodwork' (RIfle furniture) whilst M47C was the final assembly plant for the Lee Enfield Rifles.

There is a little bit of history for you.

Absolutley fantastic Alan !!! I knew about the N,M areas marks but just wasn’t sure if that’s what they looked like, so most probably that. Amazing guys, thankyou so much, it really has solved this puzzle for me, and I’m very happy that this is an all British rifle by the looks and sounds of things.
Thankyou guys, so appreciated