Proposed No.4 Mk1 T Camo scheme

[DeeBee]

I've managed to get a hold of a No.4 Mk1 T action, and I'm planning to make a clone of the camo painted rifle in the attached picture. I'm thinking that by painting on a camo pattern, I can use an older slightly beaten up stock, do a little bit of filling, and end up with a clean finish.
The photo is black & white, so I have to guess the colour scheme. I'm thinking of using British desert & Italy tank camo paints, as I assume that these were the colours available. I'm planning a light stone base, with dark brown & olive green swirls, with maybe some very dark gray edging like the tank camo in the attached picture.

Has anyone come across a similar project or have any knowledge of the subject? I thought I might as well ask, as I'd be disappointed if I painted up a stock and found out that the colours were wrong, or that there were better photos & historical sources.
The depth of knowledge here can be quite impressive. I thought I might see how far it goes.

Information

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[Roger Payne]

If it's any help I've got a 41 Maltby T with green splodge cammo paint on it. I presume it is genuine service done & I can upload a photo of it if you would like.

I gather there's a lot of ex-Indian issue 4T barreled actions being sold in Oz at present.......wish there was some in the UK!

[Peter Laidler]

Why don't you just do what most of the snipers I've ever known, seen and come across do? In REAL life, they just wrap an old face veil or scrim netting/sacking tied around the rifle and tie it with some bailing twine. We had a saying about camouflage and it went something like this. Nature never comes in straight lines, straight colours or perfect radii. You camouflage bearing in mind all the S's. Shape, shine shadow silhouette and a few other S's that I forget now. Same as your binoculars. Wrap them in scrim.

[browningautorifle]

Shape, shine shadow silhouette and a few other S's that I forget now

Shape, shine, shadow, silhouette, spacing, sound...texture, color, movement...

[DeeBee]

If it's any help I've got a 41 Maltby T with green splodge cammo paint on it. I presume it is genuine service done & I can upload a photo of it if you would like.

I gather there's a lot of ex-Indian issue 4T barreled actions being sold in Oz at present.......wish there was some in the UK!

Thanks for your reply.
If you could send a photo of your rifle that would be very interesting to see.
I have gotten one of the Indian actions. They are DPed so there is a bit of a risk getting them.

[Alan de Enfield]

Thanks for your reply.
If you could send a photo of your rifle that would be very interesting to see.
I have gotten one of the Indian actions. They are DPed so there is a bit of a risk getting them.

Are you planning to build it up as a 'shooter', or a wall hanger ?

[DeeBee]

Are you planning to build it up as a 'shooter', or a wall hanger ?

A shooter.

[Roger Payne]

This rifle is exactly as I acquired it in 1997. You can see I've not rushed to refit the cheekpiece, rear sight, & tap the foresight block back a little & fit the waited foresight protector as yet! I believe that it had only been warehouse stored by the one civvy owner who had had it since it was disposed of by the MoD. I doubt that it was ever fitted with a triangular swivel. On top of which that splodgy green paint looks too old & shXXXy to be anything other than of the era, & has now faded somewhat. I've just presumed it to be the work of a previous user who for some reason preferred that to scrim netting, or maybe used both......

It's been on this forum before, when we were discussing bolt head sizes. The bolt body is factory matching, & the bolt head is also M marked (I'm pretty sure it's the original but I can't prove it) & is very clearly marked with a size of '4'.

[Alan de Enfield]

A shooter.

I'll post some notes from the UKs most senior armourer (Peter Laidler) who has written several books on Lee Enfields and particularly the No4T

I don't know if it will make any difference to your plans, but at least the forum has made you aware of the implications and cannot be held responsible for any accidents.



I have mentioned ‘Britain’ here but while I can’t include Canada, I can certainly include New Zealand and Australia with a degree of certainty plus India, whose Army liaison Officer at work ran his eyes over this paper for me. I have also mentioned DP too and in this respect, it isn’t meant to mean ‘DRILL’ in the parade square context, it is meant to indicate practicing your rifle ‘training drills’. And it’s not only rifles that were downgraded to DP either because in the days of the old ‘number’ radio sets, many of these were classified as DP sets too.

When I read about DP rifles in various places, I get the impression from the armchair experts that they are formulated by someone in the Armourers shop who decides that he’ll make/convert a few rifles in order to …………. NOTHING could be more dangerous nor further from the truth. One other thing too. Do not mix up DP rifles with the ‘higher’ standard (?) ‘sub-standard’ rifles that trickled out of service in the early 50’s. At least there were gauging limits for those!

When need exists for such rifles, the idea is put up to the Brigade Training Major for example and ‘staffed’ up the chain of command where a decision on the matter will be reached after due questioning of all concerned. I’ll take a fictitious unit training for an operational role in bongo-bongo land. The attrition rate of the weapons on the training team, due to the arduous nature of the training is critical is such that they need 20 rifles and 6 GPMG’s that can be used and abused. Authority is given for them to be issued these ‘extra’ DP classified weapons from Ordnance stockpiles. So, in the normal course of events, these are issued from training stocks.

But, let’s say the DP stocks aren’t available, then authority will be issued FROM THE MINISTRY OF DEFENCE no less, for such weapons to be made available. Ordnance stores would then select from returned weapons that are deemed to be ‘ZF’ (that’s an Armourers technical explanation that I won’t go into) or BER (Beyond Economic Repair) to select the required amount for conversion to DP specification.

Now, if the required amount cannot be made from the ZF and BER stocks, then the remainder will simply be converted from standard war stocks. You will see from this, that while on the face of it, some 30 years down the line that your bright and shining No1 or No4 rifle LOOKS bright and shining, under the bright and shiny surface might be lurking a metallurgical nightmare ……………… Let me give you an example

During the 60’s and 70’s there was a constant need for No4 DP rifles, not only for cadet Forces but Parachute training too where the actual carrying of a rifle was more important than what the weapon was for. The reason for the attrition in this case was quite understandable. So a small but continuous rolling programme of ‘DP-ing’ was undertaken. Naturally many ZF/BER No4’s plus otherwise serviceable rifles were put into the programme plus a healthy dollop of L1A1 rifles too. Not only were these worn out rifles put into the pot, but we later learned, several thousand extensively fire damaged No4, L1A1 rifles and Bren guns that had been involved in a massive fire. These were aesthetically cleaned down, rebuilt to DP standard and profusely marked JUST so that there could be no doubt about their status. Oh, they looked very nice but what had gone on under the surface was a matter of conjecture. Would YOU fire one? I’ve been an Armourer for a couple of years and while I or your local gunsmith could examine one and give it a bright clean bill of health, would YOU trust it. NO, I wouldn’t either!

Let me give you another example too. NO dates here of course but ‘recently’ several hundred assorted weapons were recovered from a fire ravaged/damaged ship, sunk in low water (and later towed out to sea and scuttled). These were all quickly earmarked for scrap and eventually side tracked for DP/Training use. Like the other example, these were also cleaned, and refurbished, painted and ‘restored’ to aesthetically ‘serviceable’ condition. Oh, they looked good but within a couple of years, these had started to rust from under the welds, seams and joints.

And before I forget, let me remind you of something else too, JUST in case you’re tempted to buy one to use as spare parts. This is what the Armourers bible says. ‘……..it will be assembled as far as possible with components which are below the standard required for a service weapon’. And another thing you ought to remember. There were NO gauging limits for DP rifles. Mmmmmmm, food for thought there!

That’s about it. In my very limited experience as an Armourer and having overseen some of these DP programmes, I can tell you with certainty that they were all profusely marked DP so that their status was unambiguous. Agreed, some might be taken straight from stocks, but the rest ……………

Would YOU trust one? There certainly IS a place for a DP rifle in a collection as it forms a place in the lineage of the breed. But in the cupboard or rack or on the wall. NOT on the firing point.


And how does he know this? An Engineering Graduate, Capt. Peter Laidler is the senior Armourer in the British Army since serving his apprenticeship between January1963 and 66. He is currently the senior technical Officer at the Small Arms School at Warminster. And oversaw the introduction of the current L59 series of DP rifle. Or he just guessed. Pick what you think suits!
Resurrect a DP rifle from ANY nation......., no fear!

[Lee Enfield]

AdE,
The OP is rebuilding it from a stripped receiver - if it gauges OK (and I would hardness test it too) it is OK.