Early Shirley

[Sapper740]

I have a 1941 4 digit serial numbered No.4 MkI B9802 that if I what I know is true is around the 19802nd rifle made by Shirley in WWII. 19801st if there was no B0000. It appears Ishapore got their hands on it at some time as it has the Ishy screw but God bless'em, they only scrubbed the right sight of the butt socket so B 1941 9802 is still visible on the left as is 9802 on the bolt, forestock and magazine. I'm frankly amazed the magazine is still with the rifle.
Unfortunately, the bore is shot out and would need a new barrel to be a shooter. Does being an early four digit Shirley add anything to it's value? If so I will leave it in its near original condition, otherwise I'll look for a Criterion barrel for the rifle.

[Alan de Enfield]

It appears Ishapore got their hands on it at some time as it has the Ishy screw but God bless'em, they only scrubbed the right sight of the butt socket

Don't forget that the Brits 'invented' the cross-screw, the Indians then copied it some time later.

Are there any other indications of Indian usage or markings ?
The Indians tended to completely scrub the original markings so if the manufacturer, date and serial are still there it may not have the Indians who put the cross bolt (screw) in.

[Sapper740]

Don't forget that the Brits 'invented' the cross-screw, the Indians then copied it some time later.

Are there any other indications of Indian usage or markings ?
The Indians tended to completely scrub the original markings so if the manufacturer, date and serial are still there it may not have the Indians who put the cross bolt (screw) in.

Hmmmm. You might be on to something. I assumed with the Ishy screw and not seeing any stamps on the receiver flat that it had been scrubbed but you piqued my curiosity and with a magnifying glass and angled light source I can just make out o4 MkI (F) FT so I assume the N at the beginning and the R at the end are illegible. So maybe no Ishapore scrubbing, just a worn lightly struck stamp. Further, the receiver looks like it was painted with Suncorite further hiding the stamps.
Do you think a 4 digit serial number Shirley is worthy of preservation as is?

[Alan de Enfield]

Hmmmm. You might be on to something. I assumed with the Ishy screw and not seeing any stamps on the receiver flat that it had been scrubbed but you piqued my curiosity and with a magnifying glass and angled light source I can just make out o4 MkI (F) FT so I assume the N at the beginning and the R at the end are illegible. So maybe no Ishapore scrubbing, just a worn lightly struck stamp. Further, the receiver looks like it was painted with Suncorite further hiding the stamps.
Do you think a 4 digit serial number Shirley is worthy of preservation as is?

Fazakerley were renowned for poor, illegible markings such that the military were allowed to use a new numbering system - as described by Peter Laidler :

As for the markings, well, as I have said before, the shallow, almost invisible pantograph scratch markings caused all sorts of headaches for Armourers and thousands of these almost invisible Fazakerley re-numbered rifles were later re-numbered with the 'lost' number format of SA60 A1234 and so on. One seen only last week reads SA63-A2253 indicating Small Arms, 1963 with the sequential number A-2253 while underneath a number that reads something like 53P xxxxx follows!"

[Roger Payne]

Assuming I've not overlooked something I think your rifle's serial is just 9802, without a letter prefix. Usually, in a production run the first batch had no prefix, then A prefix, then B & so on, so it would make your rifle even earlier than you thought. The B above the date, 1941, simply indicates the rifle was made by BSA at their facility in Shirley, Solihull, just outside Birmingham. During 1943 the B identifier was dropped in favour of M47 for a short while, & then M47C till the end of the company's production of No4's. In fact, I have seen spare parts coded M47C & dated as late as 1956.

Enclosed a view of the markings on one of your rifle's siblings.

[Sapper740]

Assuming I've not overlooked something I think your rifle's serial is just 9802, without a letter prefix. Usually, in a production run the first batch had no prefix, then A prefix, then B & so on, so it would make your rifle even earlier than you thought. The B above the date, 1941, simply indicates the rifle was made by BSA at their facility in Shirley, Solihull, just outside Birmingham. During 1943 the B identifier was dropped in favour of M47 for a short while, & then M47C till the end of the company's production of No4's. In fact, I have seen spare parts coded M47C & dated as late as 1956.

Enclosed a view of the markings on one of your rifle's siblings.

Thank you for that information Roger, you've helped me make the decision to leave the rifle as is.

[Brian Dick]

I have 4343 with the "A" suffix for nonstandard parts added later. It's an early No.4Mk.1T conversion like Roger's. It's never been through FTR and has lots of character. The telescope serial number on the wrist is 1581.

I would just carefully clean and service that rifle Sapper. Is it an RTI import?

[Sapper740]

I have 4343 with the "A" suffix for nonstandard parts added later. It's an early No.4Mk.1T conversion like Roger's. It's never been through FTR and has lots of character. The telescope serial number on the wrist is 1581.

I would just carefully clean and service that rifle Sapper. Is it an RTI import?

It was imported by CAI and fortunately has an absolutely miniscule import stamp that can barely be made out with the naked eye. I assume it was just large enough to be legal. Yes, I'll be carefully cleaning and servicing the rifle. It deserves preservation.

[Brian Dick]

That's good news. Any of the Century Arms imports will be much better than the Ethiopian owned "tomato stake" grade rifles being sold by RTI.