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Thread: Gallery of Dramas. Broken Enfield Parts!

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jmoore Gallery of Dramas. Broken... 12-21-2010, 07:09 PM
Peter Laidler That bolt handle is the most... 12-22-2010, 05:51 AM
tbonesmith I once repaired the sheered... 12-22-2010, 06:02 AM
breakeyp I had the unplesant... 12-22-2010, 08:31 AM
jmoore Thanks for the "Reader's... 12-22-2010, 08:30 PM
breakeyp Materials comments 12-23-2010, 08:20 AM
jmoore Just a clarification on... 12-23-2010, 09:30 PM
browningautorifle The only one I can attest to... 12-22-2010, 09:09 PM
Steve H. in N.Y. Unsafe safety 12-22-2010, 09:43 PM
Mk VII Broken one on the right ... 12-24-2010, 11:37 AM
Brian Dick In all my years and hundred... 03-31-2011, 01:18 PM
vintage hunter Seeing these bolt failures in... 03-31-2011, 02:33 PM
Peter Laidler GREAT thread this......... ... 12-24-2010, 01:26 PM
breakeyp The only ones who considered... 12-24-2010, 06:33 PM
jmoore Whilst in the initial stages... 12-25-2010, 10:10 AM
breakeyp I stole Mr. Moore's picture... 12-27-2010, 06:27 PM
No4Mk1(T) I like this thread. Looks... 12-25-2010, 03:16 PM
jmoore This one, yes? ... 12-27-2010, 10:39 PM
jmoore BTW, the more typical slow... 12-28-2010, 02:52 AM
breakeyp Thank you for the photo help.... 12-28-2010, 07:16 AM
jmoore That is why I thought it... 12-28-2010, 07:32 AM
RJW NZ A little wreckage, a 1918... 12-28-2010, 04:20 PM
jmoore Fortunately for y'all, RJW NZ... 12-30-2010, 06:23 PM
breakeyp Playing the Ford Motor Co.... 12-30-2010, 08:31 PM
Mk VII Seen several of those staked... 12-30-2010, 07:12 PM
Claven2 I love this thread, though I... 12-30-2010, 10:11 PM
breakeyp Consider the relationship of... 12-31-2010, 07:39 AM
jmoore Something that came up in one... 01-03-2011, 08:42 AM
breakeyp I love the story. My... 01-07-2011, 07:23 PM
Claven2 Yes, there is a bending... 12-31-2010, 08:08 AM
Brian Dick If the bolthead, firing pin,... 12-31-2010, 10:07 AM
Bruce_in_Oz I stand to be corrected, but... 01-08-2011, 01:15 AM
jmoore You're not wrong, I believe... 01-08-2011, 11:01 AM
Son I wasn't sure about which... 01-09-2011, 08:57 AM
jmoore I think it's a great... 01-15-2011, 11:07 AM
5thBatt The lug on the firing pin &... 01-15-2011, 04:56 PM
Claven2 I suspect many of the bolt... 12-31-2010, 11:42 AM
Peter Laidler We've mentioned the rotating... 12-31-2010, 12:39 PM
Son It seems strange to have to... 01-02-2011, 10:15 AM
Claven2 I think part of the problem... 01-02-2011, 10:34 AM
Son Ahhh, the oxy torch. Here's a... 01-02-2011, 11:08 AM
jmoore So far, all of the broken... 01-03-2011, 08:23 AM
Claven2 LOL - 4 (count them) FOUR(!)... 01-02-2011, 02:04 PM
xa-coupe Is it my imagination or have... 01-02-2011, 06:42 PM
Bruce_in_Oz Regarding SMLE cocking... 01-04-2011, 05:05 AM
Peter Laidler That's an interesting piece... 01-07-2011, 03:33 PM
Claven2 Ah yes, the wonderful IZOD... 01-07-2011, 09:43 PM
Peter Laidler Off the subject a biut, but... 01-09-2011, 08:45 AM
Rumpelhardt You are. Your just not... 01-09-2011, 08:57 AM
P-07ShortLee Interesting photos. Out of... 01-15-2011, 12:00 AM
jmoore Time for more carnage: ... 01-15-2011, 12:06 PM
jmoore Link to CMP"s thread which... 01-26-2011, 07:46 AM
Surpmil SMLE bolt that was probably... 01-27-2011, 02:21 AM
jmoore Outstanding, Surpmil! What... 01-27-2011, 02:37 AM
Surpmil No sign of any damage to the... 01-27-2011, 03:03 AM
Peter Laidler I can't see the... 01-27-2011, 09:20 AM
jmoore The discolouration indicates... 01-28-2011, 03:09 AM
jmoore Using a better monitor only... 01-28-2011, 11:11 AM
Surpmil Well let me eliminate some of... 01-28-2011, 10:29 PM
Peter Laidler Yep, I think you've hit the... 01-29-2011, 05:25 AM
jmoore Agreed! It's almost like a... 01-29-2011, 12:34 PM
plate On the recommendation of... 03-11-2011, 01:31 AM
jmoore Plate, thanks for the photos.... 03-11-2011, 02:33 AM
villiers The long, unknown history of... 03-11-2011, 03:37 AM
Peter Laidler I haven't seen a striker... 03-11-2011, 04:14 AM
jmoore It's not an Enfield part, but... 03-12-2011, 07:39 PM
Claven2 A new one popped up today on... 03-30-2011, 08:52 PM
Brian Dick Interesting. I have the rear... 03-30-2011, 10:02 PM
jmoore Immediate question that arose... 03-30-2011, 10:37 PM
Brian Dick The rear half of the bolt I... 03-30-2011, 11:24 PM
Thunderbox Even with a mismatched bolt,... 03-31-2011, 04:47 AM
jmoore Except for Brian Dick's... 03-31-2011, 05:16 AM
Claven2 nother photo surfaced: ... 03-31-2011, 07:07 AM
jmoore That still doesn't make a... 04-01-2011, 02:42 AM
Thunderbox Looks like the fracture... 04-01-2011, 02:57 AM
Peter Laidler Although we can't see the... 03-31-2011, 07:28 AM
vintage hunter Comparing the photos to the... 03-31-2011, 08:23 AM
RangeRover This non-too-technical... 03-31-2011, 10:36 AM
paulseamus Could a partially closed... 03-31-2011, 09:04 AM
Peter Laidler It COULD be in theory Paul... 03-31-2011, 09:49 AM
Peter Laidler Is that the same bolt from a... 03-31-2011, 02:08 PM
Brian Dick Peter, It's the same bolt... 03-31-2011, 03:17 PM
louthepou I haven't been posting for a... 03-31-2011, 04:28 PM
jmoore Hard to see much right now-... 04-01-2011, 05:02 AM
jmoore OK! Having had a better look,... 04-01-2011, 08:08 AM
Peter Laidler That's an astute observation... 04-01-2011, 08:38 AM
Simon P An old article about barrel... 04-01-2011, 10:59 AM
Claven2 It's not my rifle guys! It's... 04-01-2011, 11:57 AM
jmoore Boxer primed but the cup size... 04-01-2011, 12:58 PM
Thunderbox I've got some fired DI43z in... 04-01-2011, 01:29 PM
RJW NZ Failed 303 brass 04-02-2011, 12:27 AM
vintage hunter Was that IMR 4895 or H 4895?... 04-02-2011, 12:56 AM
RJW NZ re 4895, I don't know, it was... 04-02-2011, 07:08 AM
Claven2 New pics: ... 04-02-2011, 08:49 PM
Thunderbox You can see that the rim has... 04-03-2011, 02:49 AM
5thBatt If the ammo in question is... 04-03-2011, 03:38 AM
Amatikulu Another broken Enfield - Of... 04-06-2011, 01:39 PM
smellie Gentlemen; I have been... 01-29-2012, 06:36 AM
villiers I´ve seen men using a heavy... 01-29-2012, 01:25 PM
Surpmil So the 210 rounds the guy has... 01-29-2012, 03:08 PM
5thBatt Belmont Ammunition is based... 01-29-2012, 06:48 PM
5thBatt smellie, i would expect some... 01-29-2012, 07:13 PM
Mr303 "So the 210 rounds the guy... 01-29-2012, 08:08 PM
Surpmil That's what I read. You... 01-30-2012, 02:25 AM
harry mac The 4th and 5th pics show the... 02-14-2012, 06:32 PM
jmoore Photos 1.3a and 1.3b, yes?... 02-15-2012, 12:57 AM
jmoore And here's yet another link... 06-18-2012, 02:53 AM
muffett.2008 Besides you, the current... 06-18-2012, 06:52 AM
Story 361683616936170 I suppose... 08-21-2012, 10:59 AM
Lee Enfield Your forend was originally on... 08-21-2012, 01:49 PM
Story Interesting, thanks. Anyone... 08-21-2012, 05:12 PM
jmoore I believe this qualifies as a... 09-26-2012, 05:12 AM
jmoore Here's a link to a thread... 01-17-2013, 03:59 AM
Brit plumber When I did my Small Arms... 01-18-2013, 07:33 AM
tiriaq With respect to the sheared... 01-18-2013, 12:11 PM
  1. #1
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    Gallery of Dramas. Broken Enfield Parts!

    As a continuation of a previous thread:

    Is this a common failure? by rumpelhardt

    Here's some photos of failed components for your consideration. Feel free to add your own tales of woe, preferably with photos! (Even slightly fuzzy ones as some of these are-sorry! ?low batteries???)

    Most of the following fractures are quite "granular" in appearance, unlike typical "fatigue failure" break lines that show a combination of fracture propagation modes. Really, if there were signs of deformation surrounding the break, it would be tempting to call it ductile tension failure, but these look more like fractures found in cast iron. Note too, that most of the components are of Indian origins according to the various markings.

    The cocking piece that shows the most typical appearance for a fatigue failure in steel is an Ishapore (corrected origin of mfg on 12 Dec 2010) manufactured part. Some burnishing on most of the fracture face, showing repeated cycles before failure.

    Anyway, some horror pictures!:


    Photo#1.1-Damage on the bolt body face is due to an attempted removal of the bolt head stub.
    ETA: Unfortunately, a more detailed photo won't help much here as the stub has been extensively modified in texture during some previous removal efforts.


    Photo #1.2a-This bolt head doesn't belong to the bolt assembly above. I've several more as well!

    Photo #1.2b-ETA: supplemental photo as also shown in post #13.

    Photo #1.3a

    Photo #1.3b-Don't know HOW you would attempt to repair this failure! Very sad.


    Photo #1.4a

    Photo #1.4b-??????


    Photo #1.5-A real close up of these fracture faces would be grand. ETA- So ...there's better on post #13.

    Photo #1.6- Minor failure (the cross pin) that could be fairly dangerous! Rotate the safety lever, but the cocking piece won't be restrained! Wartime emergency safety variant- worse than nothing!

    Several photos leave a bit to be desired. Please give me a few days to improve the results. Hopefully, this will spark some discussion and further contributions, regardless.

    No condemnation of the rifle is intended here! It's just something that I find interesting about any mechanical device- failure modes. Made a fair living dealing with it so far... and "wasted" a lot of time studying it whilst getting a degree that's hardly been used....
    Information
    Warning: This is a relatively older thread
    This discussion is older than 360 days. Some information contained in it may no longer be current.
    Last edited by Badger; 01-15-2011 at 06:59 AM. Reason: Edited post to show link with description ....

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    Peter Laidler's Avatar
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    That bolt handle is the most interesting to me JM. That particular area is pretty well metalurgically speaking, stress free. I've never seen anything like that. It's a good clean break too. It would have been a good student project knowing what it is. The cocking pieces are unusual to me too as they usually break across the half bent/weak link. That's a hardening failure across the different mass area - yes?

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    I once repaired the sheered little lug on the underside of the bolt (safety lug/half cock or whatever it is) by getting a little lump welded there and then carefully filing it to the correct shape. Worked fine.

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    I had the unplesant opportunity to investigate and resolve? heat treat issues in the automotive business. Given the volume of fasterners Ford uses every day, it is not surprising that problems happen. Chassis Division had 7 metallurgists/material engineers alone.

    Problems can be due to:
    1. Improper heat treat
    2. Incorrect materials or materials out of spec
    3. Batch heat treat may mean parts on the out side of the heat source don't see proper temperatures or parts too close to heat may be over heated. A hardened part may not be drawn down to the final temperature. I have seen a hardend part drop on the floor and break.
    4. Slag/impurities imbedded in part leads to weak cross section
    5. During the milling process at the steel mill--one billet is mechanically welded to the next and the seam becomes a srtess point subject to failure in a later manufactured part.
    6. Part notched or dented during manufacturing process prior to heat treat.

    A coarse cross section at a break indicates an immediate failure. If the break surface is smooth with a series of curved swirls--the failure was ductile and happened over time.

    I have a three inch thick textbook from a class on the Theory of Failures that attempts to cover the subject. If someone is really desperate for reading material, I can furnish the title and particulars.

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    Thanks for the "Reader's Digest" version, breakeyp!

    I'm thinking there's out of spec. materials dramas here, as well as heat treating issues. The cocking pieces above seem to have failed in two cases via slow crack propagation ("fatigue"), whilst the other went all at once. As it occurred in an area w/ rapid section change, it's possible heat treatment was a contributing factor, but I suspect a bit of "notch sensitivity" as well. Fairly roughly machined, most are. The Enfield example (Early type cocking piece) shows the classic crack propagation features the best (I think...they're going to be re-photoed in a few days, so maybe we'll have a better illustration.)


    Quote Originally Posted by breakeyp View Post
    I have a three inch thick textbook from a class on the Theory of Failures that attempts to cover the subject
    Yah, I get that! I still don't know of one "bible" for this subject. Most of my best references seem to be small papers and studies. ASM and ASTM affiliated, the majority; old AWS magazines as well.

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    Materials comments

    Quote Originally Posted by jmoore View Post
    Thanks for the "Reader's Digest" version, breakeyp!

    I'm thinking there's out of spec. materials dramas here, as well as heat treating issues. The cocking pieces above seem to have failed in two cases via slow crack propagation ("fatigue"), whilst the other went all at once. As it occurred in an area w/ rapid section change, it's possible heat treatment was a contributing factor, but I suspect a bit of "notch sensitivity" as well. Fairly roughly machined, most are. The Enfield example (Early type cocking piece) shows the classic crack propagation features the best (I think...they're going to be re-photoed in a few days, so maybe we'll have a better illustration.).

    I am sure Peter can say more as he is there and knows the current Britishicon system of material callouts. The WWII period part drawings I have had access to show material callouts that allow a great variance in material components/processing. We (the US) use SAE (Society of Automotive Engineers) material descriptions. This method has become world wide much like the Doctors using Latin to provide a common language for body parts. If you call out SAE 1020 steel--it means it is made to specific ingredients and there are specific heat treat procedures to obtain a desired surface hardness and it can be expected to have specific material properties. I have seen British drawing that call out material to be a stock number from a specific supplier. If he goes out of business---you have to start over. If he makes a bad batch---how to you prove it. If he takes shortcuts due to material component unavailability, how do you prove it.

    Mr. Moore I can tell you have been down the road. I had some oldtimers that helped me through the maze explaining the differences between ductile and catastrophic failures. One thing they were absolutely crazy about was if a failure was attributed to material crystalization--you got a rough lecture as all metal is crystaline in nature. Steel has infinite life, unlike Aluminum, and does not change properties over time. Steel must be worked or have a weak crossection vs. load for a failure to happen. Unlike steel, rubber continues to cure, age, over time to the point cracks/failures happen. For example look at antique car steering wheels--guaranteed cracks. Re-reading this I find that I would have been in trouble at work if I had written this. Due to the lawyers, we couldn't write using the word failure. We had to say the part was unable to react to the present load.
    Yah, I get that! I still don't know of one "bible" for this subject. Most of my best references seem to be small papers and studies. ASM and ASTM affiliated, the majority; old AWS magazines as well

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    Quote Originally Posted by breakeyp View Post
    Steel has infinite life, unlike Aluminum, and does not change properties over time.
    Just a clarification on breakeyp's excellent post (He's gone to an extreme "shorthand" to keep from filling pages!):

    Steel parts will theoretically survive an infinite number of stress repititions or cycles IF the applied stress is below a certain level. Above that point- failure will
    happen. How soon can be predicted with increasing certainty as the variables are controlled (or are known), reducing the "factor of stupid". (A phrase I picked upfrom a favourite pre-PC professor)

    Some parts can be designed to last millions of cycles, others don't need to last ten! It's maddenly hard to control ALL variables, though!

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    The only one I can attest to is the cocking piece (early type) broke exactly like the one pictured. About 1972 on that one.
    Regards, Jim

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    Unsafe safety

    Removed from an otherwise very good condition rifle that I just got. I suppose this could ruin someone's day.

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    Broken one on the right


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