4T's

[303 Collector]

I am not an expert so please excuse me if I have got this wrong.
My knowledge is that the No4T rifles were only produced between 1941 and 1945 and mainly based on BSA (M47) rifles with some Enfield (trials), Longbranch, Savage and Maltby types.
All were No4 Mk1 or Mk1* rifles.
While looking through some old manuals I came across a "Vocabulary of Army Ordnance
Stores" 1959. It lists all the No4T types including No4T Mk1/2's. I have seen No4T Mk1/2 rifles converted in India but none in British service.
It also list a No4T Mk2 which would suggest there were late builds of the 4T as Mk2 rifles
were not produced until 1949.
Do British No4T Mk1/2 and Mk2's exist ?
If not why are they listed in an official publication?
Or have I got it all wrong?
I have scanned the the relevant pages and attached them.

Information

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[Alan de Enfield]

Thats new to me, be interested in the replies.

[Roger Payne]

I would be interested to know if anyone else can speak categorically on this, as I can't either. However, I strongly suspect that this is an example of a phenomenon often seen, whereby conversion standards & designations for modifications to equipment are accepted & approved, & in due course get into the VAOS. The fact that they have been given an official designation does not always equate with any actually being produced. Anther example might include the No32 Mk1/1 telescope, which was given the Optical Stores number OS1399 (the 2/1 is OS1400). The 2/1 was both produced de novo by UIC & converted from existing Mk2 scopes, though no Mk1's scopes were ever fitted with Mk3 scope drums (which is what the Mk1/1 was).

I do not believe any new build 4T's were ever produced (at least in the UK) after the WW2 contracts were cancelled in April 1946. PL referred in passing on a number of occasions to me about a few No4 Mk1/2 T conversions existing, although he never showed me one so far as I can remember. The L8 T designations allowed for the different variations in body configuration such as Mk1, Mk1*, Mk1/2 etc, as L8A1, L8A2 & so on, but how many (genuine) examples that exist is likely to be very small indeed (I've heard the figure of six mentioned but can't remember for sure). If you have access to a pantograph engraver you can put whatever you like on a rifle body....

[GeeRam]

I would be interested to know if anyone else can speak categorically on this, as I can't either. However, I strongly suspect that this is an example of a phenomenon often seen, whereby conversion standards & designations for modifications to equipment are accepted & approved, & in due course get into the VAOS. The fact that they have been given an official designation does not always equate with any actually being produced.

I agree.
The MOD system is littered with similar examples, as the paperwork has to be all in place prior to any physical item being received, and then someone cancels the physical item, and there's already a huge papertrail that stays in system until its revised and re-issued a couple of years later and the no-longer needed stuff can be deleted.

I do not believe any new build 4T's were ever produced (at least in the UK) after the WW2 contracts were cancelled in April 1946. PL referred in passing on a number of occasions to me about a few No4 Mk1/2 T conversions existing, although he never showed me one so far as I can remember. The L8 T designations allowed for the different variations in body configuration such as Mk1, Mk1*, Mk1/2 etc, as L8A1, L8A2 & so on, but how many (genuine) examples that exist is likely to be very small indeed (I've heard the figure of six mentioned but can't remember for sure). If you have access to a pantograph engraver you can put whatever you like on a rifle body....

Quite, and if there had been any Mk.2 4T's built in any significant numbers - you would have expected it would have been those ones that would have been selected to convert to 7.62 to create the L42, not WW2 made Mk.1 4T's.

[Lee Enfield]

I am not an expert so please excuse me if I have got this wrong.
My knowledge is that the No4T rifles were only produced between 1941 and 1945 and mainly based on BSA (M47) rifles with some Enfield (trials), Longbranch, Savage and Maltby types.
All were No4 Mk1 or Mk1* rifles.
While looking through some old manuals I came across a "Vocabulary of Army Ordnance
Stores" 1959. It lists all the No4T types including No4T Mk1/2's. I have seen No4T Mk1/2 rifles converted in India but none in British service.
It also list a No4T Mk2 which would suggest there were late builds of the 4T as Mk2 rifles
were not produced until 1949.
Do British No4T Mk1/2 and Mk2's exist ?
If not why are they listed in an official publication?
Or have I got it all wrong?
I have scanned the the relevant pages and attached them.

what does the list of changes para C 7569 say?

to "new build" No4Mk2(T) rifles you would have to build new jigs for the Faz action, re-design the rear pad (similar to LB) and set up a new conversion production line.

I agree with Roger, but add 2 questions:

1. Why new build a No4Mk2(T) when there were already several thousand brand new scopeless No4MkI(T) rifles in stores?
2. Were No32 Mk3 scopes new built during the 1950s - why recycle scopes when you're building new guns?

[Surpmil]

Given the importance of trigger operation to accuracy, and the importance of accuracy to sniper rifles, one would have thought the No.4(T)s would have been the first converted, but in the event they never were in the UK(?)

I wonder why?

[mrclark303]

Given the importance of trigger operation to accuracy, and the importance of accuracy to sniper rifles, one would have thought the No.4(T)s would have been the first converted, but in the event they never were in the UK(?)

I wonder why?

I guess it was a simple matter of priority.

The mk1 'T' worked well enough and there was an abundance of Wartime examples in store to keep the much smaller peace time army equipped.

I've mentioned this before, but when my father was a young National Service REME armourer in 1954, he remembered stripping and gauging lorry loads of cosmiline covered T's, straight from store to be re-issued.

These hadn't been FTR'd, but gone directly to store post war.

One would assume enough rifles remained in store to simply replace worn examples.

[Lee Enfield]

I guess it was a simple matter of priority.

The mk1 'T' worked well enough and there was an abundance of Wartime examples in store to keep the much smaller peace time army equipped.

...snip...

One would assume enough rifles remained in store to simply replace worn examples.

While this is true, we are looking at it thru the 2020 lense, not the 1959 lense - in 1959 all the planning was for a full scale nuclear WW3 - which is why the change over to modern small arms (FN-FAL/C1/L1) and L2A3/C1 SMG was such a huge priority, but the expectation was not WW1/WW2 "the redux"... but "mop up" operations between the survivors.

[GeeRam]

While this is true, we are looking at it thru the 2020 lense, not the 1959 lense - in 1959 all the planning was for a full scale nuclear WW3 - which is why the change over to modern small arms (FN-FAL/C1/L1) and L2A3/C1 SMG was such a huge priority, but the expectation was not WW1/WW2 "the redux"... but "mop up" operations between the survivors.

Quite.
Sniping had all but disappeared from the Army mindset, which is why there was no real 'need' to look at a replacement for the 1000's of 4T's they still had in store/use, despite having already sold as surplus 1000's of them already by the early 60's.
The decision to retire the Vickers MG in the late 60's and therefore 'retire' the 303 round from front line service, as well as the decision by the NRA to convert to 7.62 prompted a look at converting a small number of 4T's to 7.62 in line with the 7.62 target rifle program and create the L42 for continuation of their small sniper needs going forward, as the remaining 4T were getting a bit worn out.

[Roger Payne]

I gather there was an idea to convert new No4 Mk2's to meet the requirement for the L42 programme as so many of the 4T's were pretty well used by 1970. However, the idea was not proceeded with as sufficient 4T's with enough life in them were ultimately found for the conversion programme. From what I have been told (largely from PL) keeping the required number of L42's up & running during their service lives was a challenge at times.

Even so, I've often wondered why, when 4T's were converted to L42's EFD didn't hang the triggers on the body at the same time..........seems like a missed opportunity to make an excellent rifle even better.