Trench Firing Device?

[AD-4NA]

I saw this interesting No1 MkIII rifle at auction a while ago and have been meaning to have the experts and WWI aficionados here take a look at it. Does anyone recognize what all those attachments to the rifle are? My best guess was that it was some sort of trench firing device or some sort of gas system for a self loading/semi auto conversion. It looked too complex to me to just be a smoke discharger conversion and mounting system. The 1914 production date makes it a little more plausible or intriguing also. I never noticed it come up for discussion on the forum but thought it was quite interesting.

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[lithgow1918]

I saw this interesting No1 MkIII rifle at auction a while ago and have been meaning to have the experts and WWI aficionados here take a look at it. Does anyone recognize what all those attachments to the rifle are? My best guess was that it was some sort of trench firing device or some sort of gas system for a self loading/semi auto conversion. It looked too complex to me to just be a smoke discharger conversion and mounting system. The 1914 production date makes it a little more plausible or intriguing also. I never noticed it come up for discussion on the forum but thought it was quite interesting.

I remember that rifle, have some screen shots of it somewhere. I thought it was some kind of semi auto at the time because of the safety catch thing that seems like it was done up to prevent the trigger from being pulled while the bolt was open. Looking at it again I probably was mistaken. Wasn't sure about the rest. Funny I was just thinking about this rifle earlier today and was gonna try and dig up the pictures.

[Alan de Enfield]

I was going to suggest the same - I have seen details of two versions of the semi-auto Lee Enfield development but I think I kept them on an old PC. I'll have to try and find it.

If it is what we think t is a very rare rifle.

Is it something like this :



Other ones were :

[lithgow1918]

I remember trying to compare it to all the conversions I was familiar with and coming up empty, although it does most remind me of the howell rifle. I remember it selling for what seemed to be a fairly low price, I think under $1000 usd. I was tempted by it but out of my depth as knowledge and at the edge of my price range at the time. Another suggestion I heard about it was that it may have been for grenade launching or something of the like, and the description as I recall suggested it possible could be for sighting in artillery or something similar. The general consensus among people I shared the images with seemed to be semi auto conversion though.
Also just checked photos it was a 1913 production gun not 1914.

[AD-4NA]

This rifle originates from the Bob Faris collection. It has tag no. 150. Skennerton describes it as "Gun Training Aid", and in detail "S.M.L.E. Mk III converted for practice on larger guns. Locating point & spring-loaded plunger on right side, brackets are fitted onto left of action body", as well as "Downgraded rifle for use as small calibre in training with larger guns" and "Cocking piece modified for use with a gun lanyard, an interesting item".

If I was to make a guess, this thing was used as cheap training with large artillery. At least I know similar usage of other guns in this fashion.

Edit: re date, barrel has date of 1914 on it. Skennerton lists maker as RSAF Enfield 1915.

Neat, that makes sense with what we see and explains the DP marking. Do you have the page number in Skennerton? I would like to read more about if anything more is in there.
By the way how were Faris collection items tagged?

I remember trying to compare it to all the conversions I was familiar with and coming up empty, although it does most remind me of the howell rifle. I remember it selling for what seemed to be a fairly low price, I think under $1000 usd.

Same here; these days it would have sold for more as an unmodified MkIII. Hope it didn't get broken up.

[butlersrangers]

"Breakeyp" posted a couple of relevant patent drawings for this device, but, it does not appear most are understanding this apparatus. The S.M.L.E. has been fitted with a bronze armature that allows it to be attached to a Cummings Sub-Target Gun Machine.

(This is not a sub-caliber artillery device).

The Sub-Target Machine was a teaching/practice shooting aid. It helped facilitate proper and consistent sight picture, steady position and good trigger-pull, without the use of ammo. (It operated similar to the later "Dotter" devices).

A rifle fitted with the armature could be attached to the "Machine". The "shooter" was able to move the rifle normally, had to support only the normal weight of the rifle and aimed at a distant target.
A pointed rod, attached to the machine, moved parallel and in synchronization with the rifle.
When the "shooter" Dry-Fired at the distant target, the rod made a Pin-Prick on a miniature target (sub-target) held in a small frame on the Machine. Multiple Dry-Firing made multiple pin holes that showed aiming consistency and could be 'scored'.

The Cummings Sub-Target Machines were made in Boston, by Wilkinson in England, and possibly in Toronto, Canada. The U.S. Machines used a cable and linkages, actuated by the striker. The Wilkinson Machines used a wet-cell, wiring, solenoid, and trigger actuated switch.
The Machines cost about $400 to $500 and were in use from the early 1900's to WW1. They were used all over the world and could be adapted to any service rifle. 'Blanks' could be used to further simulate Live Fire.

These "Cummings' Machines" have been illustrated in numerous 'Gun Books', but, are generally overlooked. "U.K. N.R.A. Miniature Calibre Rifles" has some wonderful content on these devices.

I do not know if one of these 'Cummings Machines' has survived the last 100 years. Few would recognize or have a clue, if one was stored in a dusty closet somewhere.

Known purchasers: New York Pubic Schools/Police Athletic League (12 to 20 of them). U.S. Military Academies, Michigan State Troops-3rd Regiment, Royal Navy (for bases and some ships), British Army and Military Academies, some Canadian and U.S. Military Schools.

The Machine allowed intra and inter-school "Competition" without ammo.

Attachment 109121Attachment 109122Attachment 109123Attachment 109125Attachment 109126

[Promo]

This rifle originates from the Bob Faris collection. It has tag no. 150. Skennerton describes it as "Gun Training Aid", and in detail "S.M.L.E. Mk III converted for practice on larger guns. Locating point & spring-loaded plunger on right side, brackets are fitted onto left of action body", as well as "Downgraded rifle for use as small calibre in training with larger guns" and "Cocking piece modified for use with a gun lanyard, an interesting item".

If I was to make a guess, this thing was used as cheap training with large artillery. At least I know similar usage of other guns in this fashion.

Edit: re date, barrel has date of 1914 on it. Skennerton lists maker as RSAF Enfield 1915.

[breakeyp]

Attachment 109057Attachment 109058 I originally thought the rifle and fixture were coaxial training devices for artillery pieces. My rifle is commercial, not military and came from Faris. It actually is part of a massive training device that suspends the rifle and allows it to move in all directions. Designed and patented by H. H. Cummings. Attached is some drawings from the patent paperwork. I leave speculation as to how effective it was but I do note that not too many rifles have surfaced.

[Alan de Enfield]

Attachment 109057Attachment 109058 I originally thought the rifle and fixture were coaxial training devices for artillery pieces. My rifle is commercial, not military and came from Faris. It actually is part of a massive training device that suspends the rifle and allows it to move in all directions. Designed and patented by H. H. Cummings. Attached is some drawings from the patent paperwork. I leave speculation as to how effective it war but I do note that not too many rifles have surfaced.

The power of the forum strikes again ……………………………….

[Daan Kemp]

All the added stuff indicates it was part of something else. Like a spotting rifle for a larger calibre or sub calibre training. The fitting on the right hand side is too far to actuate the bolt, so there must have been attachments from the left hand side to whatever larger equipment it was part of.

Oops, previous post appeared while was typing this one.