Krag Carbine Help..........(Pics)

[target-panic]

Hello,
I'm a first time poster here, but this seems to be the best place for info.

I have the opportunity to buy a Krag Carbine from a friend. He is in his early 70's and the gun belonged to his Grandfather who had a long and distinguished millitary career including the Spanish American War. This carbine has been tucked away in his closet for years and it appears to be in excellent condition to me, but I'm surely not an expert. The receiver is marked " 1895", but the stock is stamped 1896, the S.N.-28026. It is missing the bar and ring, but otherwise I think it's all original. I'd appreciate some opinions on the overall condition and approx. value of this carbine. This will help make a decision to purchase or not. I have several pics that I'll try to post.
Thanks!

ImageShack Gallery

Information

Warning: This is a relatively older thread This discussion is older than 360 days. Some information contained in it may no longer be current.

[5MadFarmers]

Stock is later than the receiver as you noted. Rear sight is a rifle sight. Bolt bits are from an 1892 rifle.

Bayonet is for an 1895 Mannlicher if I'm not mistaken. Most carbines don't have bayonets anyway - mounted dudes had swords.

So, no, it's not "all original." Then again I'm the one that's pretty convinced that 99% of the "original" US Krags, aren't.

Nice gun. I like it. Needs a bit of help but nothing too bad. Chuck might notice other bits.

Cheers.

[chuck in idaho]

If you don't buy it, others here sure would like to, including me!
I don't see much wrong with that carbine. The sling bar is not hard to come by. They run about $60-$75 on average. The rear screw in the sling bar cut out is not correct, Another easy fix.
Curious about the bolt. it looks like it has a model 1892 bolt sleeve (grooves around sleeve by the safety lever) Could you post some pictures of the bolt from different angles?
I usually don't price a piece from pictures but I have seen a lot less carbines with asking prices around $1500
It's a nice 1st group carbine that would be easily restored.
FWIW
Chuck
If you do not buy it, I would be interested in it.

[chuck in idaho]

Joe,
look at that rear sight again :0)
Chuck

[target-panic]

Thanks Guys!

Here's the deal.......I think I'm going to buy this gun unless you guys point out something out of bounds with it. He let me take it home with me tonight to clean it up and check out the bore. It looks just great to me! I snapped a bunch more pictures and have posted a link below.

He also showed me his Grandfather's service record which included the Spanish American War, and he also had some metals from Cuba. So, I think this may be a real find!

I sent an email with the S.N. to the Springfield Armory Research Service to see if they have any records to authenticate military use of this carbine.

Please......This has been an Awesome learning process for me. If anything in the pics. jumps out at you......let me know. There is a wealth of knowledge here on this forum.

Thanks!

ImageShack Gallery

[5MadFarmers]

Joe,
look at that rear sight again :0)
Chuck

Yes, it was a quick look, there is a much nicer picture up now - nice carbine sight.

It's a nice gun regardless of the stock and bolt bits. The bolt bits are 1892 but that's an easy fix.

"I think I'm going to buy this gun unless you guys point out something out of bounds with it."

Yes, do so. It's a nice carbine.

[chuck in idaho]

Just for safe measures:
Close the bolt and run a cleaning rod down to the bolt face. Mark the rod at the muzzel, take it out and measure it. Should be exactly 22".
Look at the base of the front sight where it is dove tailed into the barrel. The color of the solder/brazing should be a gold/bronze color, NOT silver.
Please let us know?
One more thing, Look in the but trap. How many holes do you see for the cleaning rods? At the 6clock postion is there a small dip in the wood? (cut for oiler)
The stock and cartouche date look OK too me for the serial number range.
(5MF, am I missing something?)

From your last set of pictures the bolt looks like a model 1892 bolt body/parts.
I've got the correct M1896 bolt if you want to do some tradeing.
I don't see anything major, looks like a good carbine. Let us know how things turn out.
Chuck

[target-panic]

Thanks Chuck........I'll look at the things you listed tomorrow.

I read somewhere that the early 1896 carbines were stamped "1895" on the receiver. It would only make sense that if 1896 was the first year of the carbine that the stock would be stamped "1896" wouldn't it?

Here's something else that I found.........Looks like the same thing, with a serial number that is close to the one that I have here.

National Park Service - Detail Record

What are bolt bits ????

[target-panic]

I found the info. that I spoke of in my earlier post. Does any of this apply to me? I don't know an extractor from a fillet......???

Norm Flayderman writes: "Variant Carbine. Known to collectors as the Model 1895 carbine and almost identical to the above except dated 1895 and 1896 on the receiver without the word MODEL. Made prior to the official adoption of the 'Model 1896.' Serial number range 25000 to 35000. Thumb safety smaller; trap in butt not cut for oiler; no fillet at junction of body and heel of extractor (rounded in the Model 1896 and square shaped in this early variant."

"The Model 1896 Carbine was approved May 23, 1895, but the first issue to troops occurred on March 10, 1896. By May of that year the entire cavalry was armed with the Model 1896 Carbine....Because the assembly of M1896 carbines started in 1895, early receivers of this model are marked 1895, for the year of manufacture." - William S. Brophy

[5MadFarmers]

The stock and cartouche date look OK too me for the serial number range.
(5MF, am I missing something?)

Chuck

No, I was taking retarded pills yesterday. I see they were effective.

So the FY95-96 Chief of Ordnance report states that 7,111 magazine carbines were made "during the year ended June 30, 1896" [pg13]

The Springfield Armory report states that "The first issue of the carbines was made on the 10th of March preceding" [Arsenal of Freedom, Brophy, pg74]

So let's say that 7,111 carbine were made between the beginning of March and June 30 of 1896.

#24,685 is an early early 1896 carbine.
#35,594 is a late early 1896 carbine.

(there are also late early 1896 carbines and late late 1896 carbines).

Springfield reports 2,930 carbines (late early) were made in 96-97 (Brophy -pg83)

So 7,111 + 2,930 = 10041
35594-24685 = 10909

So our observed range is greater than the production range. Not a big deal as the receivers were out of order and thus rifles will be in there too; regardless, I think the range is pretty well known.

The carbine here is 28026. That would be maybe June of 1896.

24685 + 7111 = 31796

Lose a few due to our overages so I'll say maybe 31500 is June 31, 1896.

So June 1896.

Incidentally, there really shouldn't be any 1896 carbines with 1895 cartouches right? If the cartouches are calendar year, and March is our starting point....

June of 1896. Perhaps that makes up for my retarded pill information yesterday.

Buy the gun.