New to Forum with New Enfield

[JBS]

Greetings all, posted this on another forum and things did not go well when I stated that I was going to re-index the barrel to correct a bad front sight lean from a factory over torqued barrel. I operate what I collect, and it will be in top condition. It is a 1954/55 No4 MkII unissued from the last production run. It was a gift from father in-law. It’s not for sale and never will be. It was a mummy in tatters. I finished unwrapping it. Other than it needs the barrel reclocked it shoots very well with factory fodder and will do much better with handloads. Anyway, greeting all.

Information

Warning: This is a relatively older thread This discussion is older than 360 days. Some information contained in it may no longer be current.

[Badger]

Welcome ...

Don't be too upset if you found Enfield collectors hard on you when you spoke of taking a wrench to the barrel.

Collectors buy pieces to appreciate in value and to do that, they usually need to remain undisturbed. In a collector's eyes, what you're doing is tantamount to heresy, so of course there reaction is understandable.

When you took this old girl out of the original packing, you reduced it's collectible value substantially and if you do start working over the barrel, you'll most likely affect (reduce) it's value some more, but only to collectors.

If you don't care about this rifle appeciating and you want to shoot and stroke it, then go for it. It's your rifle and you can do anything you want to it, as long as you do it with full knowledge as to how you may be affecting its value.

Here's some more information about these "wrapped" Enfields, which you may find helpful. With thanks to Gunboards member Rob "Trebor" Reed, there's an entry about these rifles in the England - Milsurp Knowledge Library (click here)

Still wrapped 1955 No.4 Mk2 Enfield Rifle (Mfg by Fazakerley) (click here) .....

Regards,
Badger

[JBS]

Thanks for the welcome Badger. Yes some collectors are like that. I would say they are more like museum curators but there is no need to be obnoxious or insulting about it. Myself like I said I operate what I collect. I am the same way with my antique car. To me they were not made to be starred at but some will differ. A painting yes, cars and arms no. I will make an exception for a true one of a kind arm or car,,,maybe. The rifles value to me is priceless as it was a gift from a great man and friend.


Can never have too much information, thanks. So far I have learned it was in the last 29,000 production run from Faz and went straight from production to long term storage. This is probably why second level inspection did not detect the barrel error and return it for correction, and a circle F.

[Alan de Enfield]

The following information from Peter Laidler (REME Enfield Armourer & Expert) regarding No4 barrel indexing may help :

At our big field and base workshops it wasn’t such a problem because we’d usually have a long racks of barrels, both new and almost new that we could use until we’d get one with the correct ‘hand-tight’ underturn that we could select for final fitting. Oh, yes……, before I forget, we always graded our barrels in quarters of life. If a barrel was in its first quarter of life then it’d be almost as new and so on to a last quarter of life where it was probably shot out. But shot out didn’t mean that it was duff or inaccurate either. Anyway, I digress………….. But don’t get the impression that it was just barrels where the breeching up threads were slightly out of index. It was the rifle bodies too. And if you got a rifle where the breeching up thread was ‘late’ (that is, commenced even a minute of angle late), then getting a barrel that would underturn was difficult. So I’ll take you through what could and would happen.

Sniper rifles were the worst because they were always at a premium and the Command AIA, (the Assistant Inspector of Armaments) would always specify new barrels for these but that was easy to say but sometimes difficult in practice. So where a new barrel couldn’t be found with the correct underturn, the breeching-up face of the body would be smoother-off with a smooth file, just a gnats knacker or as you wild antipodeans or colonial savages say, a RCH so that a datum surface was available. Then the best-fit barrel would be fitted until it read the correct underturn THEN a reading would be ascertained as to the thickness of material required to get the correct underturn. Lets say that in our case, it was .028”. That’s twenty eight thousandths of an inch.

Someone suggested that his gunsmith will insert a .028” steel shim and that’s the answer. Others have suggested that it’d be a good idea to gently swage the shoulder of the breeching-up face of the barrel, sufficient to take up the slack. DO NOT USE THESE METHODS. THEY ARE XXXX POOR ENGINEERING PRACTICE and verging on the best bubba practice you will ever have the privilege of seeing. Have you digested that?

This is what you do. Knowing that your barrel needs .028” underturn, get yourself a proper breeching up washer made. I’m not going to teach you or your machinist pal how to suck eggs but if you need .028”, then get the breeching washer made .128” THEN machine .100” off the breeching up face of the barrel (no, the breeching UP face, not the BREECH face silly…..). But I’ll let you into a secret. At our large Base workshop in Singapore, we were running major overhaul programmes of everything including L1A1 rifles. Then, someone noticed that the tough, hard, readily available and exact diameter required L1A1 breeching up washers were between about .055” and .070” thick. Now, we’d just take the barrel to the little Chinese fitter/turner (he had a big pile of breeching up washers in his tray anyway) and say .”028” please Lim” and he’d mount the barrel and machine away .032” from the breeching up face. You’d walk back to the Armourers shop, past Steve’s Magnolia ice-cream van where you’d spend the next half an hour discussing politics or the Viet-nam situation or the new flower arrangement in the church with the rest of the blokes……..Oh, I’ve gone off at a tangent again…… Anyway, armed with the new barrel with .032” machined off the breeching up face PLUS a new .060” L1A1 breeching up washer you’d know that .060” - .032” was .028” which is JUST the underturn we need to tighten the barrel to make it PERFECT on the flat-plate we used to ensure that it was perfectly tight, upright and square.

Is that simple enough? It might be a tad more thoughtful that a steel shim or a good battering around the barrel flange that won’t last twenty minutes but it’s how the pro’s do it.

There are a few afterthoughts too. I’m telling you this so that when YOU need to do the job, then YOU tell your gunsmith how its done properly. And go and buy a selection of L1A1 breeching up washers now, while they’re available. When a badly shot-out/rusty bore No4T Lyman TP rifle was recovered recently, it too overturned by as much as it should have underturned, even with a new barrel. Our main workshops were at their wits end as there were only a few barrels from which to select. So what method do you think THEY utilized? Yep, got it in one. And it shoots as sweetly and accurately as it ever did. And as for us young 20 year old lads discussing politics, Vietnam or Flower arranging in 60’s Singapore…………, then if they did, I wasn’t part of the discussion!

[JBS]

Thank you Alan. I have knowledge of this technique. I still have some L1A1 breach washers ( clocking washer ) from a few years back when I had a run of fix my century Fal come into the shop. At this point I do not know if it will require a shoulder cut and washer. The barrel is over clocked by one maybe two minutes. Rolling it back that amount my still have it within a torque I am comfortable with. I will not know until I do it. I had this once on a Garand. It was over clocked, I was able to break her loose and it still went to correct torque range when it came up to correct index. Thanks very much for the information.

[Amatikulu]

If that target is indicative of how it shoots its first five rounds, with a bad sight lean, I would say you don't have a problem that needs fixing.

[JBS]

Amatikulu, thanks for the compliment on the group. That group is at 100 yards and it took full windage to get it to center on the target.

[Patrick Chadwick]

First of all JBS, I am delighted to see that someone else thinks that a rifle is a precision tool to be used, not a corpse to be wrapped. But secondly,I have a wee mathematical problem. You refer to the barrel having one or two minutes of overturn. Do you mean that the barrel is rotated past the "true" position by one or two minutes of angle? If so, I am surprised you can even measure it, as that would be an amount down in what Peter Laidler calls the gnat's knacker range. Or do you perhaps mean degrees?

I agree 100% with Amatikulu that if a rifle shoots like that, then I would not want to disturb what must be a perfect combintation of draw tension, fore-end loading, trigger guard screw torque and all the other delicate fettling points about which Peter has informed us and which I have filed under the heading "if it works, for heaven's sakes leave it alone". Yet you are now thinking about digging up a healthy tree and cutting through the trunk because the very top is a touch out of vertical. Seems an extreme solution to me. Why not rotate the foresight instead? That is much easier, in fact I could do it in my cellar with a fie and a soldering iron.

OK, assuming you mean 1 or 2 degrees, which would be visible, how about this: rejig the foresight as follows: remove foresight protector, remove foresight block band, increase width of slots in block band by damn cautious filing (or milling, if you have the equipment) to give the block band the required rotational play so that you can set the block truly vertical. Solder in place - a reversible fixing - by pre-tinning the gaps and then flooding them with solder when the block is set true - or glue - or make two tiny keys to insert into the gap that now appears between the slots in the block and the bosses on the barrel. A dab of blackboard black and no-one will be able to see the correction.

Advantages: you have not FUBARed any bedding, tension etc. You have not spoilt any surface finish. The change has only altered the foresight block, and will be practically invisible afterwards.
Disadvantage: your bayonet will now be the same one or two degrees out of true. Is that going to bother you?

Peter, if you have recovered from the shock, what do you say?

Patrick

[gunner]

Good words, good advices Patrick. JBS, after seeing how your rifle shoot( and it seems that you are also a good shooter ) i wouldt NEVER change anything. I have two Enfields and both had shotgroups as a round of buckshot at 50 yards. I have done the acryl bedding and some other things and i am lucky it works. With ironsights they shoot as good as yours. But i know about the risks to "tune" a rifle. Sometimes you destroy the "balance" between the things that Patrick described and you gonna make a 2nd class shooter out off this excellent rifle. So please let it be or like some on the forum say " Dont fix it when it isn`t loose".

Regards

Gunner

[Surpmil]

Before doing anything rash, it might be worthwhile to remove the sight blade and backsight, re-inserting the axis pin, and set the barreled action upside down on a gauge block resting only on the axis pin while the forsight block rests on a large surface plate or equivalent: granite countertop or heavy sheet of plate glass etc. That would confirm the degree of misalignment.

Another option might be to slit the foresight block, 2/3 or 3/4 the way through, leaving a 'hinge' and then spread or close the cut as necessary, silver soldering it when the right alignment is achieved, and filling the cut with silver solder in the process. The block would have to be repainted obviously, but it is not vulnerable to wear, so that any decent black paint should do.

The best No4s made those UF55/56 rifles IMO. As you probably noticed, yours does not have the cutoff block on the right side, as per a No5 Rifle. This was a feature of the last years production.

That's my retelling of the story anyway!