Bren Scope

[303TF]

Nice to see a forum for the old girl - when reading alot of books about the Bren and Lee Enfield sniping, they all make mention that the No 32 scope was originally designed for the Bren Gun , WHY ? , why , who , when what, wanted a scope on a light machine gun, thats always been a question that I haven't found an answer to ?, many thanks

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[Stevo]

I would imagine it's for the same reasons you see optics on LMGs today; to make target identification easier and to increase hit probability.

[Badger]

In addition to being a trained and highly experienced military "Armourer", Peter Laidler has authored two excellent books about the No.4(T) sniper rifles and their No.32 scopes. They are titled "An Armourer's Perspective: .303 No.4(T) Sniper Rifle", which he co-authored with Ian Skennerton and his own dedicated work, "Telescope Sighting No.32".

For those really interested in some in-depth learning about No.32 series of scopes, their history, evolution, repair and adjustments for shooting, we'd highly recommend those two books, which are pictured below.

(Click PIC to Enlarge)

Regards,
Badger

[Kev G]

I was going to have a mount machined up as a point of interest years ago but never got around to it.......now the price of a scope has put paid to that idea !

[jmoore]

The Japanese may have been the first to widely equip their LMGs w/ scopes, at any rate, its been done for a while! HMGs in WWI, Mg34 and Mg42s in Lafette (spelling?) mounts. Probably originated w/ the artillery folk who are used to using scopes to shoot things they can't even see.

[John R.]

Once upon a time back in the mid 1960's I had a BEEYOOTEEFULL Inglis MkI(M) Bren with adjustable bipod legs and a REL MkI scope AND a MOUNT TOO.

Once I got it zeroed I took it hunting ground hogs(marmots) down around London Ontario with a now departed Doctor friend.Ted was REALLY into machineguns in a big way and so was I in a somewhat smaller way(98 registered full autos at the end).

I bought the mount from Tom Dugelby and although he SAID it was kosher/original he might have built it himself.The scope I got from an old gentleman who was an instrument tech at REL in Leaside throughout the war.
He lived close to the old REL plant just a block or so East of Bayview on Eglinton Avenue East(North Side).

It worked like a charm and you could literally drive tacks with the gun with the scope.I took it down to the Army Range at Winona a few times on the sly and it outshot my 90L8112 T every time.I truly regret having parted with that piece even now 40 years later.

Cheers,

JR

[Beerhunter]

Once upon a time back in the mid 1960's I had a BEEYOOTEEFULL Inglis MkI(M) Bren with adjustable bipod legs and a REL MkI scope AND a MOUNT TOO.

I may have missed something here but how did you mount a scope on a Mk1M.

[stencollector]

I may have missed something here but how did you mount a scope on a Mk1M.

Some of the early Mk1M guns still had the second dovetail. I have such a gun in my collection (dewat unfortunately). It would seem some of the mk1 features were still to be found during the changeover to Mk1(m).

One could also remove the dial type sight as the dovetail was the same. This would not leave you an alternative if your scope (or indirect fire sight) got broken however.

Edited to add that I see I spent too long looking for my photo and Kev beat me to the punch.

[Peter Laidler]

THere were only ever two telescope mounts made for the Bren and both were destroyed early in the war during trials to formulate the bracketry for the No4T. So if you had one, it was definately a fake. The Bren version was a 'bracket' of sorts that screwed to another bracket that went into the rear dovetail. That's the answer Beerhunter, it went onto the rear dovetail. These pictures of it mounted onto the front dovetail are the wild imagination of the fairies. The eye relief would make it impossible to use!

In the forthcoming book, there is an accurate in every (?) detail repro made up, just for the camera. The first 6,000 No32's were earmarked for the Bren. I have the actual serial number somewhere but.....

Don't forget that the Bren was going to be all things to all men including a MG to aid the Vickers in the OHF/indirect fire role. Common sense prevailed and it was shorn of all the crap, simplified and what emerged was what we see now as the section light machine gun.

Sorry to puncture another myth. While the Bren was superb at everything it did, accuracy wasn't one of its finest attributes. The radial sight was a ballistic nightmare and even with the long heavy barrel ladder sighted Mk2 version, the trusty Bren wasn't as accurate as even the most mediocre rifle. In fact, even at 25 yards, the acceptable FTR'd Bren accuracy diagram was a failure for a No4 rifle!

[Kev G]

The Bren version was a 'bracket' of sorts that screwed to another bracket that went into the rear dovetail. That's the answer Beerhunter, it went onto the rear dovetail. These pictures of it mounted onto the front dovetail are the wild imagination of the fairies. The eye relief would make it impossible to use.

Peter all the drawing I have show it mounted on the front dovetail regardless of scope or mount type.

These drawings DD(E)2444
DD(E) SK No 316 and DD(E)2514 show the rear apperture sight in relation to the scope eye piece.Edited to say that the red arrow is indicating the drum sight arm.







Was there a later drawing or ammendments ?

ATB Kevin