P.14 & M. 17 Historical Query

[Strangely Brown]

Having tried (and failed) to get an answer on the P14~M17 Forum, I shall try here:

"Can anybody tell me if there has been a definitive book on the subject; (other than Ian Skennertons writings) by an American author (or other) and lastly has there been an American (or other) marksman in the sphere of target rifle shooting who has used either the P14 or M17 to such an effect that they have left an "historial" mark on that period of shooting that either of these two rifles have been used in on the American/Canadian side of the pond?"

TIA

Information

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[Peter Laidler]

I can't answer the question directly Strangely but we have a LARGE selection of probably ALL the P-14's ever used in all the trials. It seems that the P'14 and 17's were used as test beds for all manner of trials, tests and tribulations. But there are certainly some questions that need answering as I can't find some answers in the paperwork.

[bradtx]

Mick, Skip Stratton has a primer about the P14 and M1917 rifles. Look for "British Enfield Rifles Volume 4". These two fine rifles have never seemed to have been comfortably pigeon holed by collectors.

Brad

[krinko]

Mick,
In the US, the target rifle of the era would have been the '03 Springfield, the '03 Springfield, the '03 Springfield, ad nauseum. The 1917 Enfield was despised and shunned and as recently as two years ago, the '03 Springfield Cult tried to "prove" that Gen-U-Ine American Hillbilly Hero Sgt. Alvin York, issued a '17, had dumped it and acquired an '03 with which to shoot all those Deutscher Soldaten and win all those medals.
Even had that dreck printed in the American Rifleman-stump, the Swine.
It's the lack of windage adjustment that did in the '17 as a target rifle----US Highpower matches would not allow a '17 with the P-H 5B to compete as a Service Rifle.
There was an American "book" done on the '17, looked like it was printed at a kitchen table and cost $20 in 1990, so I didn't get it.
Sorry.
-----krinko

[TonyE]

Skennerton's "U.S. Enfield" is about the best book on the subject although he is constantly threatening to do a re-write.

There is a new book due to be published shortly on all the WWI contract rifles built in the U.S. that covers the P.14. It is by Luke Mercaldo and will be published by Anthony Vanderlin.

Whilst on the subject of the Pattern '14 I would like some help please.

It is established by all the records that Wincester made about 235,500 P.14s. This is supported by the official History of the Ministry of Munitions, Skennerton's research and my own research for my master's dissertation, part of which was adding up the weekly receipts of munitions published by the Min. of Mun.

However, and here is the conundrum, rifles exist with serial numbers as high as 253,000+.
There are no obvious explanations. The serial numbering DID start at 1, it is unlikely to be because of failures of inspection (25,000+ receivers rejected in 250,000, 10%?) It is possible that a batch of receivers were dumped because of a bad steel batch but why make 25,000 before discovering this? There is no mention of this in the records either.

The most likely explanation seems to be human error, perhaps some form of poor record keeping, leading to a gap in the numbers.

Any other thought gratefully received.

Regards
TonyE

[Strangely Brown]

It's the lack of windage adjustment that did in the '17 as a target rifle----US Highpower matches would not allow a '17 with the P-H 5B to compete as a Service Rifle.-----krinko

That explains an awful lot of things I never fully understood about US Target/Service Rifle shooting.

[Peter Laidler]

TonyE's querie regarding actual quantities against serial numbers is always a constant thorn in the side of researchers and the real answer is that serial numbers aren't an indication of anything except an identifying feature and record of THAT rifle. It happens all the time. The UK SA80 rifles for instance. The serial numbers FAR exceed the total quantity manufactured.

[Mk VII]

That's because they don't want intelligence analysts working out how many you are making. It's the same with aircraft - they left 'ghost' blocks of serial numbers that were never used.

C.S. Ferris wrote a paperback on the M1917 which necessarily includes some material on the '14, and it's worth getting.

[Brian Dick]

The only other reference booklet I have besides Skennerton's book is called "P-17 The American Enfield" by J.C. Harrison. It's copyright 1995 and was published by The Arms Chest, 6401 S. Westminster Rd., Okla. City, OK 73150. I don't have a clue if they exist anymore. My very first military high power rifle was a Canadian issued Lend Lease U.S. M1917 purchased when I was 15 years old and I still have it. Both the .303 Pattern '14 and .30-06 U.S. M1917 are excellent rifles. Another testament to Enfield's design staff.

[Mk VII]

Harrison's one (and his Springfield one) have been much criticised for inaccuracies. I believe that the author is no longer alive.