Historical Enfield Question

[P-07ShortLee]

What happened to all the Enfields lost in the battle of France (including Dunkirk)? Is there a figure of how many were estimated lost by 1941?

Were they just rounded up for scrap, used for training or ?

Maybe they were collected up for their historical value (early collectors)?

Information

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[smellie]

If you subtract the number of rifles brought from France from the number of men brought from France in the Dunkirk evacation, you come to a shortfall in the order of 100,000 rifles.

Jerry worked as hard as he could, but he never did have enough weapons in 7.92x57 to arm everybody, although he did have enough (most of the time) so that only one standard of amunition had to be carried to the Front. Regiments being pulled off the Eastern Front for rebuild (and there were a LOT of those), for example, would leave their 7.92mm weapons behind for their replacements to use and when they got to where they would be taying, would be issued with captured weapons.

Also, large numbers of captured weapons would be turned over to occupation authorities for the use by the occupation troops and by local authorities who required weapons. An effort was made to keep rifles, for example, away from a ready source of uncontrolled ammunition. In the case of Norway, for example, many households had a supply of 6.5x55 ammunition...... so the Norwegian Krags were removed to an area where that ammunition would not be available to the Underground.

Photos do exist of SMLE rifles being carried in Occupied France.

Nice thing is that His Majesty got most of his rifles back in 1945. Some still soldier on to this day in plces. Greece, for example, was using SMLEs and Number 4s until comparatively recently and had Harley-Davidson WLA and WLC motorcycles (745cc sidevalve twin models with tank shifters and foot clutches) in regular service at least into the 1970s. The Harley, much as with the Lee-Enfield, was pretty close to indestructible.

Hope this helps a bit. Likely I'm wrong, anyway!
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[Thunderbox]

If you subtract the number of rifles brought from France from the number of men brought from France in the Dunkirk evacation, you come to a shortfall in the order of 100,000 rifles.
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What figures are you using? Just curious as, AFAIK, there isn't actually an accurate number of rifle losses - most are huge over-estimates. I believe the even some of the numbers that appear in contemporary 1940 government reports later turned out to be wrong, as they were extrapolated from surveys of only certain categories of troops - mostly the mixed "odds and sods" from support units that had to be sorted out in the assembly areas at Dover and Newhaven. Many of the line infantry units returned to UK fully-equipped with small arms for their remaining manpower.

You have to be very wary of clichés about Dunkirk and its aftermath, as a lot of the "well known facts" are misconceptions. Not only did the majority of the Army bring its rifles back from France, there was in fact no shortage of rifles at all for the regular army, the reserves and the new divisions in 1940 - Britain had 1.25 million rifles immediately available after Dunkirk. Thats actually enough for at least 90 divisions on 1940 scales. In June 1940 Britain had 27 divisions formed (one reason - apart from the RN - why there was never any real prospect of a successful German invasion) and was in process of raising another 23 - 40. All of these 27 Divisions were fully equipped with rifles and MGs, and there was enough heavy equipment (tanks, arty, etc) in UK to fully equip about 12 divisions. The perceived "shortage of rifles" actually refers to the immediate need of the Home Guard of c 1.5 million men, followed by the general war estimate to raise British, Empire & Commonwealth forces of about 4.5 to 5 million men - hence the orders for c. 4 million No4s rifles.

[P-07ShortLee]

Thanks, I always read of the severe shortages of rifles after the evacuation but never have seen an estimate so even that helps.

Maybe the Lee-Enfield (all makes and models including the Lee-Metford) are the most traveled in history?

[limpetmine]

Here is a picture of a pile of all sorts of weapons gathered on the beach. Brens, Enfields, Berthers, what else?

[Peter Laidler]

What an amazing picture.............. Is that a Boys rifle laying along the bottom edge?

My neighbours father who was captured in France with the Royal Berkshire Regiment remembers POW camp guards guarding Russian 'slave' POW's being armed with British No1 rifles and the guards in his own camp having Brens in the watchtowers. I have only ever seen one picture of Brens in use by German troops and that was on a twin AA mounting at the submarine base in France. It was in the near background and definately Brens with the curved .303" magazines. That goes some way to agreeing that they were used, albeit by the back end/rear echelon troops/Navy etc

[peregrinvs]

I have only ever seen one picture of Brens in use by German troops

Here's another: a cheery Fallschirmjäger in Italy:

German Paratroops - German with Bren MG

Evidently a discerning individual who can appreciate a quality bit of kit.

Mark

[Beerhunter]

Here's another: a cheery Fallschirmjäger in Italy:

Evidently a discerning individual who can appreciate a quality bit of kit.

And another person who just can't leave that carrying handle alone :-)

[barbarossa]

Thunderbox, no offense, but where exactly did you come up with this information? I am specifically curious about the losses at Dunkirk, versus rifles available for issue in the summer of 1940. I have seen figures quoted as high as 250,000 small arms lost in the French campaign and its aftermath. Also-- the new book by Max Hastings "Winston's War" states there were only 75,000 rifles and 3000 BREN guns (if I remember correctly) available for issue in the immediate aftermath of the debacle in France. There's a helluva disparity there! I also simply cannot believe this in light of the known emergency U.S. shipment of close to a million small arms such as the 1917 Enfield rifle from war reserve stocks to help make up for the Brit's losses in France. That million rifles we shipped over was used to arm the Home Guard and free up the available SMLE's to arm the rapidly expanding Royal Army. The First Canadian Division dispatched to Britain in 1941 went over equipped with Model 1917 Enfield Rifles and left their issue SMLE rifles at home for training new Canadian divisions. All this historical fact would seem to lead to the inevitable conclusion there was indeed a major shortfall in small arms in the immediate aftermath of Dunkirk.

Like any good troops I suspect most of the British troops effectivley rendered the majority of their rifles hors d' combat before leaving France or surrendering to German forces. I would also suspect that most of the rifles left anywhere on the beaches may have not been in an operable condition after lying out exposed to salt spray and the elements for a few days or weeks before being salvaged from the battlefield. I speak with some authority on this, having survived Hurricane Ike and helped clean well over 200 rifles and handguns belonging to friends or relatives in the wake of the storm. A goodly number of these weapons were fit only for the scrap yard after being submerged in brackish water for a few days. It would thus seem rational to draw the logical conclusion that most of the SMLE's left behind on the evacuation beaches were fit for little more than rebarb for the Atlantic Wall or tomato stakes when all was said and done. I would opine there never was any large scale issue of the Lee Enfield series rifles by the Germans to second line formations during WWII simply because the weapons no longer existed in any quantity or condition acceptable for issue.

Anyhow, a good thread and interesting to speculate.

[Kev G]

Also-- the new book by Max Hastings "Winston's War" states there were only 75,000 rifles and 3000 BREN guns (if I remember correctly) available for issue in the immediate aftermath of the debacle in France

Does Hastings cite his primary source for the figures ?

ATB Kevin