No.4 Mk.I(T) mfg.1944 with Scope No.32 Mk.I mfg. 1941/2: An odd pairing!

[jmoore]

As an offshoot of a previous thread or two, the most recent being:

"NO32 Mk1 Scope (Opinions wanted)"
https://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=26828

it was decided to create a new thread that would focus on a minor mystery that may only be a delusion!

Having seen at least three examples (of which one is in "captivity") of an early to mid 1944 No.4 Mk.I(T) mated to a 1941 or 1942 No.32 Mk.I scope which are in rather more "used" condition than their rifle, I wondered if some of the early conversions (mostly Enfield built trials rifles) were retired and their scopes sent to H&H for use on new builds.

Wild theory based on little data to be sure! However, how many Trials Rifles are there with their original scopes?

So here are some photos of one example to tear to shreds! I can do more if needed!

I'm hoping, however, that more examples will surface. Or maybe I'm just mad! Just feel free to jump in. Add data. Refute the entire idea. Have a big time.


The scope box in question for the thread is on the lower right.

You may recognize the two photos above from a previous thread that was involved in the marking of scope boxes. This box has had only the one rifle assigned!




If you ever wondered if Holland and Holland refinished the receiver bodies, note the dressed area around the flush ends of the front pad screws. If it was a local touch up method it surely wasn't "cold blue" in a bottle! I wonder if the old "browning" or "rust bluing" method could be done to a localized area?

For those wondering about the "X" mark under the front pad, I've only seen it on rifles w/ the original forestock and that have had the screws staked. I THOUGHT Captain Laidler had written something on the subject some time back but can't find reference to it now.



LIGHTLY scratched on S/N. It's easy to understand why many were later remarked using impression stamps.



Note the condition of the pad mating surfaces. It would be reasonable to assume this rifle saw very little field use!


No signs of another scope number having been applied previously. And the "S51" means it was the stock installed at H&H.


Sorry the photos aren't better. No access to the good camera right now.

Link to the whole album:

http://s20.photobucket.com/albums/b2...288/?start=all

---------- Post added at 08:50 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:49 PM ----------

Scope photos:

---------- Post added at 08:52 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:50 PM ----------

In a new separate post to make editing my mess easier!

---------- Post added at 08:55 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:52 PM ----------

Oh, well:














Post-WWII rifle S/N addition to the bracket. Since it wasn't numbered to it's first rifle, we'll not likely know what it's first assignment was, UNLESS, there's a scopeless early "T" w/ it's original buttstock still attached that has "1990" on the wrist!

More if you need 'em.

Information

Warning: This is a relatively older thread This discussion is older than 360 days. Some information contained in it may no longer be current.

[jmoore]

Gonna be a BIG first post! Dang computers.

The crate, unfortunately, has no markings linking it to the rest of the outfit. I thought it did. Sorry.










Somebody thought enough of the crate to use it as a bullet splash barrier. Many fine pieces of lead embedded in the wood. Many more tiny "cuts" all over this area.

[Surpmil]

Interesting.

is there a rifle number on the tongue of the butt?

It does look as though there hasn't been another scope number on the wrist of the butt.

On the other hand, the bracket cap screws have been 'unstaked' and the rifle has obviously seen some work post-war with the pad screws being staked and the scope number put on the outside of the case.

The brackets were numbered post-war as well if I remember what I've read correctly(?)

[jmoore]

I'm pretty sure the butt is numbered to the rifle, but I haven't pulled the stock in a number of years. If it WASN"T I'm sure I would have remembered, due too the odd nature of the beastie. Maybe it's time to do a pull-apart again.

No, the wrist number is as you would expect. The wood is still a bit proud of the buttsocket, it's not dished out in that area from a previous number's obliteration, nothing suspicious.

Pads inspected and staked when the number was added to the bracket? There's the proper "X" on the forestock under the front pad, too. Oddly, the rifle's S/N is vibropenciled on the butt socket. Usually, if they're "vibro'd" on, it's on the LH side wall betwenn the pads. Butt sockets usually have the S/N impression stamped on, many times in addition to the vibropencil on the side wall. (This only seems to apply to BSA rifles...)

What scope number on the outside of the case? T'ain't nurn. Just the rifle S/N.

Bracket numbers ARE post-WWII, as noted in my post. I've only one rifle with an un-numbered bracket!

[Surpmil]

What scope number on the outside of the case? T'ain't nurn. Just the rifle S/N.

I mispoke there.

Interesting how the scope was 1941 and was changed to 1942. That perhaps gives us an idea when it was built.

On the other hand, perhaps it had some defect during manufacture and was put aside for later rectification, which didn't get done for some time.

[Thunderbox]

Oddly, the rifle's S/N is vibropenciled on the butt socket. Usually, if they're "vibro'd" on, it's on the LH side wall betwenn the pads. Butt sockets usually have the S/N impression stamped on, many times in addition to the vibropencil on the side wall. (This only seems to apply to BSA rifles...)

I'd be about 95% certain that someone has (recently) renumbered the rifle to match the scope. The original rifle was probably 1942/3 production, hence the serial number with an "A" prefix. A 1944 rifle should be well up the alphabet - probably R, S, T or similar. Rifle looks far too "fresh" to match that scope; I find it inconceivable that a well-worn scope would be fitted to a mint rifle in service...

[jmoore]

That's the whole conundrum! New rifles w/ older scopes. As stated, I've seen more than one.

As for the rifle S/N, I'm sure I've a BSA that's 1944 w/ an "E" prefix.

[Roger Payne]

That's the whole conundrum! New rifles w/ older scopes. As stated, I've seen more than one.

As for the rifle S/N, I'm sure I've a BSA that's 1944 w/ an "E" prefix.

Thanks for posting the pictures. It really is an odd one, & I don't pretend to have any definite answers, either. Rifle is fine as are scope & bracket. I think it possible, but unlikely that an early scope would be recycled (as it were) into the system at H&H's to be fitted to a new rifle. Peter would be able to comment with far greater authority, but I would have thought it more likely the scope would go to REME workshops to be refitted to a suitable needy rifle, rather than going back to H&H. If the scope was fitted there my hunch would be that it was because it only got there in the first place in 1944, after a rather long delay, the cause of which is unknown. I don't think there is any great mystery about the WW 1944 dated Mk1's being fitted.....they were of current production at the time; WW were just late in changing over from Mk1 to Mk2 scope production, IIRC due to bomb damage to the factory.

Whilst I think the rifle is honest enough the wood does look to have been taken down a little, IMHO. Just take a look at the edges of the stamping of the S51. I'm not suggesting this means it has been renumbered with the 1990, but it is just possible. It would have to have been extremely well done, & I would concede one still has to account for a very plausible looking scope tin label.

Do we have any details on the rifle & scope numbers of the other examples you've seen?

ATB

P.S. If I've got it straight a very few 44 BSA rifles went out with A? (2nd letter towards end of alphabet such as V or X), but judging by how infrequently these are seen, the 5 digit serial number starting with 3 must have come in very early in 44 indeed. Certainly rifles without a letter prefix exist & I have owned one or two. I would just presume these were the first production run, followed by a batch with an A prefix, then a batch with a B prefix, & so on. The 44 to 45 change over seems to be in R, as rifles with either date can be found.

[Lance]

The rifle is legit as the "A" series s/n in 1944; in 1945 they started with the "R" and "S" s/n blocks. The electropencil s/n is correct for '43-44 BSA rifles (see pic's below) and due to their light engraving, many were re-stamped later. The electropencil s/n on the upper sidewall I have on my '45 BSA's and possibly they are there on later '44's too. Since the butt is factory H&H and the scope can is matching I would put up two possible scenario's.

One. The original rifle was damaged and a unfinished left over H&H converted rifle was chosen to be mated with the early Watson scope as the scope mount is a later production example and the scope pads are staked.

Two. Due to the original "T" stamp on the receiver the scope was returned to H&H during early 1944 where it was added into the system again and issued a new mount. Why send it back to H&H?? No idea, remember they had the '44 dated Watson Mk I's they still sent out from the factory so re-issuing a '42 is not impossible.

The history of this rifle is very interesting, thanks for sharing. I am envious as I "need" a '42 dated Watson for my collection with matching rifle. So if you tire of her let me know!!

[CnRcollector]

Did a double take when I saw that pic.

AV3470 is my rifle! Rest of the markings are all "right as rain". Alas, I don't have the correct scope/bracket, but the wrist is stamped 9745, which points to an HBM. Co. Mk1.