Do I have a Rare Carcano? HK 8mm Single Shot?? Pictures

[PBking51]

I was recently contemplating selling a carcano that was handed down to me by a family member. Its in my name and when i started reading on them I figured I better take up an offer for $100 while I had the chance. I notciced some markings on it, so I decided to do some research. I found about 3 articles including one on this forum that have me really excited! The inside of the barrel is very clean an no pitting, there a crack on the rear of the stock but it seems to be clean and is not loose(repair?). Also, there is very little rust on it. Can someone tell me what model Carcano I have and info about it and its history? Any Idea on Value?

Whats stamped on the gun (had to use phone to take the picture and the close ups didnt show anything):

"Cal 6,5" (stamped on rear sight)
"R.E. Terni" and a crown behind the rear sight top of rear barrel
"7,9" on very rear of barrel on top
(serial number) "H 6763" on left side of rear barrel
"1941 XIX" and "FC" on rear of barrel right side
Nazi Eagle stamped underneath the year
"HK" in a circle stamped on top of the reciever close to barrel
(serial number) "H 6763" stamped on left of reciever (H is a tad higher than numbers)
The RE Terni Crown is on the knob of the bolt

There is a wooden block that seems to match the stock in the chamber making it single shot

Note:

*There is some sort of symbol partailly covered by the stock underneath the first set of serial numbers on left of barrel

*There is a set of funky symbols mixed with the numbers 3 and 2 (???)

*There is a little symbol above the serial number on the reciever, it is clear but I have no idea what it is

*There are numbers on the rear of the stock, but it is hard to make them out


Pictures: (Again, i can not get clear close ups of markings at this time using my phone)

Information

Warning: This is a relatively older thread This discussion is older than 360 days. Some information contained in it may no longer be current.

[bearhunter]

To bad it's chopped. There were several Carcanos made up in 7.92x57. They were made by both Terni in Italy and Steyr in Austria. I have one of the Steyr built rifles. I have never seen or heard of anything other than carbines being made up. They require a special enbloc, in line clip. I made a functional one up from a commercial clip used for 1888 style rifles. It isn't pretty or perfect but it works.
When they first came into Canada, around 1983, they were all cosmetically poor. Their stocks were extensively dinged and the rest of the finish was poor. The internals were perfect.

Mine has Arabic symbols painted on the butt.

The Germans and Austrians issued a lot of these as "last ditch rifles". An old buddy in Hungary, was issued one as a member of the Hitler Youth during the last days of the war. He told me they hated them because of the recoil and ditched them at first opportunity to pick up whatever else was available. I can believe it. With milsurp WWII issue ammunition, mine has about the same recoil as a light 338Win Mag. It is accurate though. This is surprising as the sights are fixed. After reading the wikipedia results, I wonder if he just recognised the rifle and confused it with the captured Carcanos. He was only 13 at the time and slight of build.

In the copy of WHB Smith's, "The Book Of Rifles" I have, he mentions their esistence but never having seen or handled one. They certainly don't grow on trees and I don't think I've seen more than two or three.

Carcano - Wikipedia, the free encyclopediaMany 7.92 mm Carcano carbines were apparently exported to Egypt after WW II, where they served as drill and training carbines. Several also bear Israeli ...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carcano - Cached - Similar


2. Germany (ex-Italian) M.1891/38 Mannlicher Carcano Cavalry Carbine,
Converted by Heinrich Krieghoff from 6.5 mm Italian to 7.92x57 mm German for use by the German Volksturm in 1945. The carbine bears two sets of serial numbers, original Italian and the newer German, and has been proofed according to German standards and so marked. The origin of the sling is uncertain. The red varnish finish is original. The weapon has not been converted to charger loading. Instead, this carbine was intended to use a special Carcano packet clip made to hold five 7.92x57mm rounds. There is a German firing proof eagle on the receiver and a small German WaA on stock near the toe.


From John Wall

I remember an old saying that when fixed sights are on, they are a blessing. When fixed sites don't shoot to POA, they are a curse.

[bearhunter]

David Franchi wwwdg@webtv.net

Century M38 Carbine Broken Stock Special Update LINK
http://old.gunboards.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=13212

8mm Carcano BOLT mods LINK
http://old.gunboards.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=17689

More Century 7.9 M38's LINK
http://old.gunboards.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=6569

The following is my "opinion" and info on the Italian made 7.9 (8mm) Carcano's. This is going to be a VERY long post, hope it doesn't get too boring. First part is a description of a non-import 8mm in my collection, will also have info on German made 7.92 cartridges and a comparison of an M88 clip to a Carcano (they can't be used) This info will be posted in a separate thread so this one won't get to long.
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I have had this 8mm Carcano for quite a few years. It is an R E Terni 1941 XIX Model 38 TS carbine serial 6337 it is a little unusual for several reasons.
1) It is not a resent import and is not import marked.
2) It probably was never issued as the blueing on the receiver bolt guides is not worn, cartridge lifter/follower and trigger case hardening colors are not worn. It was not used for "drill practice" as the buttplate has minimal wear.
3) It has a (4UT) on the barrel (double struck) above the RE TERNI. The (4UT) is also on the underside of the rear sight.
4) The hole in the front band is not threaded for the cleaning rod and the lower side of the band is dimpled to hold the cleaning rod in.
5) Stock is re-claimed, the original serial number RB 2564 is lined out and the matching serial was added (with the same number dies), however the "RB" was not marked out.
6) The stock was probably made by "FNA" as it has their logo under the buttplate.
7) Although it could have been added at anytime it has the Italian "German style K98" sling which was also used on Italian sub-machineguns. If you have only seen "import" 8mm Carcanos you would be surprised how nice an original non-import carbine is. The finish is a high polish blue and is very nice with many of the smaller parts having a nice case hardening color. Stock is also nice with only a few dings. Other features are:
"S" on top of the receiver and bolt handle. Terni "Crown TNI" marking on the left side of the receiver. Underside of receiver is dated "41" with various other markings. Bolt handle marked "S", (FP), and "FNA". Rear sight is re-claimed, it is from a 7.35 rifle as a faint "5" can be seen after the "7.9" marking.
This is not unusual as the Italians used re-claimed barrels, sights, etc. on other rifles
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I don't agree with the theory all the 8mm Carbines are post-war made for some Middle Eastern Country, some may have been but not all of them. If they are all post-war why bother to put a date and manufacturer on them? If they were clandestine, why date them at all? Why serial number and date the rifles, in order, from 1938 to 1942? I have 1938, a questionable 1939, 1941, and 1942 examples. If post-war made why not put the same "fake" date on all of them?
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The 8mm barrels that are marked with a manufacturer and fascist date are NOT old barrel markings. They are old barrels with the markings ground off and new markings added. The old markings are sometimes barely visible and the new markings are deep. (This was also done with 7.35 carbines) So far I have only seen RE Terni carbines with a date etc. and one FNA 1938, all other FNA's are not dated. Most FNA's are blank, some are marked "FNA-B". I do have an FNA marked 38-XVI FNA-BRESCIA, serial number 993.
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The later? made no manufacturer carbines could have been made during the war and post-war. There are at least three different serial/marking groups of these. I won't go into the variations here. If they were made only for "training" and for single shot use why notch the front of the receiver for "clip loading" If for single shot only why not just add a wooden magazine block like the Germans did on their 8mm H&K conversions? It is very hard to feed a round "single shot" without this wood block, the extractor jams on the rear of the round. Why make a "special" clip latch for a special clip? (the side is marked with an "S"). If these 8mm carbines were only trainers, not to be shot, why add the recoil lug in the stock? Why mark them 7.9 or 7.92? Why mark some the "S" on the receiver and bolt?
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I also don't believe these were made under German occupation 1944/45 for the following reasons. The finish is to good, they probably would have been made single shot (wood magazine plugs) like the H&K rifles, some would have German "test proofs" and or inspection markings, they probably wouldn't have wasted time and material in this time period to make a run of these.
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Where are the "special" 8mm clips?
Most of these carbines were exported to the Middle East. I would think the Italians would also have sold them the 8mm ammo and clips. Even if the Middle Eastern country decided not to use the carbines and broke down the 8mm ammo for use in K-98's etc. some boxes, cartridges, and clips should have survived. Where is it? Did they strip the ammo off the clips and toss them? Could be? This doesn't prove there were no clips? How many of you have heard of 7.92x57 produced in 1944 by the Germans in Italy? They did manufacture it, what happened to this ammo? Same as the Italian 8mm clips? I sure would like to know what happened to all the Italian made 8mm clips for these carbines, and the German made 8mm. Some should have been brought back by returning "GI's".
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I did talk to a person who related the following on 8mm German H&K conversions which were repeaters, not single shot. "He said that the Germans did not use an insert clip but modified the standard clip.
He said that the "HK" that he had was modified in this way. His rifle had a permanent clip inserted into the clip well and the rifle was loaded one cartridge at a time. The clip was cut in half and then it was cut in half vertically down the spine. Then the two separate halves were attached to each side of the clip well allowing the spring to travel freely in between the two halves.
When a cartridge was inserted the two sides flexed out slightly, they were positioned slightly narrower than the 8m/m round, and then flexed back around the cartridge. This way the rounds were retained in the clip well while also being aligned with the chamber in the standard manner. He also stated that he has owned M.95 Steyrs modified in the same manner. The Germans modified some Steyrs to work with the standard 8m/m round instead of the rimmed round."
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My theory on the Italian 8mm is: There was a contract in 1938, or so, for 8mm carbines. Some were made in 1938, and it was decided to produce them. Production stared and they were being produced into 1941/42/43 when "war needs" stopped production like the 7.35 rifles. Some were issued and they were found to be unsatisfactory or non-standard and were put into storage. After the war they were sold to "The Middle East" and additional carbines were manufactured to fill the contract (the reason for so many variations?).
Just my opinion.
David Franchi

[jmoore]

Here's an older thread that discusses the 7.92x57 Carcanos a bit:

Carcano Rifles
Titled: "Carcano Rifles"

---------- Post added at 05:15 AM ---------- Previous post was at 05:09 AM ----------

There's more, but I'm having a hard time finding the discussion. Pictures and everything. (Including one of the bullet nose relief cut on the receiver ring.) Sorry, this isn't the best computer for doing searches!

[Harlan (Deceased)]

Blaming it on the computer is like blaming the gun for poor marksmanship!
(Just kidding)

You still trying to use that hand held to keep up with the site?
That's dedication!

[gunner]

Oh man, to bad that you guys aren´t allowed to import rifles from over here! My dealer has 3 Carcano rifles which are good looking and one Moschetto M38. He would be lucky to sell them cause no one will have them.

[PBking51]

bearhunter- I think you are over looking the fact that my carcano isnt something that went to canada to get converted and the rest just seems like babble. It was redone by HK during the War as there are many sources that say that.
I dont know what you were trying to say exactly by writing that long post, but it really didnt help me

Heres an excerpt from what I read on my other forum:

There were two, perhaps three, different types of 8mm Mauser chambered Carcano rifles. The most rare type are the Heinrich Krieghoff conversions that were done in early 1945 at a factory in southern Austria. These guns only have one reinforcing lug in the stock, don't have a notch cut in the top of the receiver ring, and originally had a wooden block in the magazine which rendered them into singleshots. The serial numbers have a H prefix. Researchers think perhaps 3,000 were converted. These are the only 8mm Carcanos that have legit Nazi markings. I have seen photos of a M38 short rifle, M41 rifle, and IIRC, a M91/38 TS carbine converted by Krieghoff. These guns were allegedly carried by German forces in Northern Italy (SS Polizei units??).

If you guys want to see a nice Heinrich Krieghoff converted 8mm M91/41 Carcano infantry rifle check out auction 84481480 on the Gunbroker auction website. It has all the characteristics of the late WWII German conversions; electropencilled serial number on the bolt, original serial number xxxxxed out, new serial number with the H prefix, waffenamt stamps, wood plug in the magazine to render it a singleshot, no notch in the receiver ring, and the adjustable part of the rear sight assembly removed. Interestingly enough, the stock is missing the customary Krieghoff reinforcing lug under the receiver, could this be a replacement stock? The rifle's description doesn't say anything about matching numbers on the barrel shank and buttstock, but then again the original sn is Xed out. IIRC, this rifle sold for $776 and had 17 bids. Check it out at World War I & World War II Collectibles- GunBroker.com


edit. Oops, the winning bid was $796, not $776. IIRC, a HK 8mm converted M38 short rifle sold on GB a few months ago for $400 - $500.

BTW, Kieghoff initially attemped to fabricate 8mm Carcano conversions with a functional magazine, but after a few dozen protypes they gave up due to insurmountable reliability problems. The singleshots were then put into production in March-April 1945.

[Harlan (Deceased)]

I believe this is what Bearhunter meant PBking51 -



He didn't mean that conversions were done in Canada. He was only trying to help you and your comments were uncalled for.

If you want to interact rudely with people, please find another forum.

I thought his explanation was interesting enough to do some quick internet research and found it interesting.

I think there' some related conversations in two threads below:
(Just in case it's helpful to anyone. If it's not helpful, please forgive me)

M41 Front sight hood found? on German 7.9 1/06
Heinrich Krieghoff 7.9 M41 Carcano?

~ Harlan

[PBking51]

I did not mean to get snippy, just my phone going off at 4am with an email saying I had a reply was enough to get me out of bed, but all the words at 4 in the morning just had me annoyed i guess and when I got up a second time I just wanted to share my feelings
Sorry if I offended anyone.

I would just like to know if the gun I have is rare and worth the 750 I saw on:
Need info on Carcano Carbine in 8mm Mauser in French & Italian Rifle Forum Forum

[jmoore]

Sorry about the odd hours, but that's when I'm up! Maybe a mute button when you're asleep?

There were quite a few 8mm Carcano rifles imported- I remember a rack of 30 or so round about 1999-2001 in a store in Columbus (GA). Priced at about US$150 or so, but they weren't real pretty. Definitely OLD conversions and quite used.

Didn't get one- don't know why, probably just forgot to go back...

Anyway, "value" (price) is in the details. Almost impossible to give accurate values w/o the weapon in hand! I've seen plenty of folk quite disappointed after their internet "treasure" arrives.