Pakistan Ordnance Factory

[tlvaughn]

I know that the story behind the machinery shipped to the Pakistan Ordnance Factory at Wah Cantt has been discussed before, but I wanted to open it up again for discussion and clarification. I was reading a recent thread and a post from Mr. Laidler prompted me to start this thread, so I hope he is able to chime in. Below is the post from the other thread:

"The Fazakerley rifle making machinery all belonged to the Ministry of Supply and went into storeage at a big ex RAF semi-underground bomb storeage dump near Aylesbury. It was the BSA rifle making machinery that was sold off to Pakistan under a private deal and some of the BSA staff went there to set it up."

BSA's machinery was sold to POF in 1950 or 1951 for the production of MkI rifles. The production of the MkI was 1952 thru 1957 at which time the production changed over to the Mk2. Since the BSA machinery only produced MkI rifles, that would mean that POF purchased other machinery for the Mk2 production.

According to Skennerton's book, Herbert Woodend stated that ROF-Fazakerley shipped the machinery to POF in the mid-1950's. The Mk2 production at ROF-F ended in 1956 and production of the POF Mk2 started in 1957. The POF receivers are also identical to the late Mk2 UF production.

Is it possible that some of the ROF-F machinery made it to POF? If not, and it was placed in storage, how was POF able to produce Mk2 rifles on the BSA machinery?

Information

Warning: This is a relatively older thread This discussion is older than 360 days. Some information contained in it may no longer be current.

[Thunderbox]

BSA converted Mk1s to Mk2s under FTR contracts and, as they therefore had all the component dimensional specifications, its perfectly possible that they modified their production equipment to make it more suitable for export.

There is also the whole question of whether complete rifles, unfinished rifles, CKD kits and/or components were also sold to Pakistan. Some POF-marked rifles appear to have UK-made components in them, or even look suspiciously like BSA-made rifles - in terms of quality and finish.

A related puzzle is the provenance of "FR" marked wood that bears "P58" stamps and purports to be of Pakistan manufacture. Whilst most of this wood does appear to be from sub-continent species, about 20% (based on my own rough survey) appears to be walnut, and hence from UK origins. This, together with the puzzle of the "FR"-marked complete rifles from wartime manufacturers, indicates to me that Pakistan received large batches of rifles and components, as well as the manufacturing plant.

[xa-coupe]

I can't search FR because the term is too short... so I will commit a short hijack and ask what it stands for? I stripped the wood on a maltby no4 and found FR marked on the butt.

[Thunderbox]

I can't search FR because the term is too short... so I will commit a short hijack and ask what it stands for? I stripped the wood on a maltby no4 and found FR marked on the butt.

There are at least two "FR"s.

An "FR" stamped on the receiver - usually the butt socket - indicates a factory or major rebuild, usually associated with India.

A different style of "FR" is found stamped on the right side of butts of unmodified No4s, often Savages. The identical mark is also found on the hidden (ie under the metal) surfaces of wood furniture components that appear to have been made in Pakistan. This type of "FR" is open to debate but, as it appears on unmodified rifles and new unfitted wood, its unlikely that it refers to the sort of "Indian factory rebuild" in the first type of "FR". My own view is that it is a contract or inspection mark used in the procurement of complete (ie surplus) rifles and unfinished components for Pakistan - I suspect it originates from a UK contractor or inspection agent.





The "FR" as it appears on complete rifles:

[jmoore]

how was POF able to produce Mk2 rifles on the BSA machinery?

It occurs to me that the tooling changes would be relatively minor-probably possible with a cutter mod when machining the body's underside near the front side of the socket to leave more material for the fillets from which the trigger hangs. Otherwise, there's MORE material removal which could be accomplished by adding a few more work stations (machines).

1. Gang cutter for cutting the side features of the action body fillet (including the recess for the trigger).
1a. A drill and ream operation for the trigger pin added- Easily done with a fixtured gang drill (cheap!)
2. Trigger guard cut. Not requiring a dedicated machine, just a fixture for a GP mill, horizontal, vertical, or perhaps a production mill. (Also easy and cheap)
3. Change in the profiling cut on the RH side of the action body if the vestigal cut-off block is eliminated. Probably the hardest change of the lot from a production standpoint, but probably did not require a whole new machine, just cam (most likely) or cutter changes.
4. Minor changes to the inletting of the fore stock. Again, the most complex probably being the elimination of the cut-off boss recess.

[xa-coupe]

Many thanks JMoore.
My FR is on the butt. The woodowork appears to be original ( at least the forend matches the receiver ) but doesnt have a matching bolt.

[Peter Laidler]

I actually saw many tons of ex Fazakerley No4 rifle plant and machinery in a dismal state of repair on a visit to the secure storeage site at a semi-underground former RAF bomb dump near Aylesbury. The dump is still in use and secure and doesn't feature on google earth. At the time the dump contained various 'missiles' so remained and still is described as ' secure'. The machinery was all identified and clearly marked as ex ROF6/Fazakerley. Most of the redundant Sterling sub machine gun production plant and machinery had been disposed of to the Sterling Company for a song.

As a matter of interest, the LAST machining feature of the No4 body was the interior of the butt socket.

You all know by now that BSA were simply sub contractors making rifles for the old Ministry of Supply, They weren't an ROF of any sort. They weren't allowed to make No4 or even No8 rifles after the completion of their contracts. However, the rascalls did make many DA prefixed No8 rifles due to a slight managerial profit making 'oversight'. After 10 years of care and maintenance the machinery was theirs to dispose of.......... which they did. To Pakistan in the 50's! After all, it was no use to anyone else.

The same restrictions and disposal regime applied to their Bren production facility too

Regarding the FR mark. Many years ago we had a little booklet that mentioned hundreds of these little foreign and common abbreviations and according to that, the FR mark was simply Factory Repair as opposed to a Factory THOROUGH Repair. The difference being that the FTR was a total rebuild to brand new using the factory gauges and specification whereas repair was repaired at the commercial factory as opposed to a Military Base Workshop. Or something similar given the 20 years or so since I've seen one. Mind you, the booklet has been proved to be wrong because it mentioned the RNG mark as Royal Government of Nepal or Royal Nepal Government due to ther fact that it has a King when we now know (? or do we.....) that it's Rhodesia and Nyasaland Govt.

[jmoore]

Want to see a gang drill and fixture (actually, it's a drill jig in this example) in action? (as per item "1a." in Post #5)

Not an Enfield reciever, but the theory is the same. It's about 10 sec. into the film clip.

Thanks to Michael Petrov for the link:

Workers work on machinery to manufacture ordnance material in a factory in the United States.

[tlvaughn]

Based on the fact that PL has seen the machinery from ROF-F with his own eyes and the info Thunderbox and jmoore were able to provide, I guess it is safe to assume that the POF MkI's and Mk2's were made on BSA machinery. From the info I read in Skennerton's book and the side by side comparison of my POF MK2's and ROF-F UF MK2's, I would have bet they were made on machinery from Faz.

I know it is a moot point, but I was unable to post this quote from Skennerton's book last night because I was out of town:

"Herbert Woodend, curator of the MOD Pattern Room, had advised that the Fazakerley plant was sold to Pakistan and set up at Wah Cantt..."

[jmoore]

side by side comparison of my POF MK2's and ROF-F UF MK2's, I would have bet they were made on machinery from Faz.

Can you do some really detailed photos of the areas that look the same machine tool mark-wise? Might require a camera with manual controls or a super macro setting. (I don't have a digital camera that'll do it reliably.)

And then the same W/ a BSA action. Late, if possible.

Cutters get changed but usually there's enough variation in processing that some sort of conclusion might be possible.

No Pakistani No.4's on my end, so it's on you for now!