Lee-Enfield No1 MkIII w/wire wrapped stock

[Frank30]

I have a No1 MkIII with a wire wrapped stock. I've seen a few on here that were listed as "grenade launchers". Does anyone have any info on these? Is the wire wrapping because of added barrel pressure when launching grenades?

Information

Warning: This is a relatively older thread This discussion is older than 360 days. Some information contained in it may no longer be current.

[Thunderbox]

The binding simply prevents the wooden handguards from splitting or being popped off by the vibration of the grenade launch.

[Frank30]

Ok, thanks for the info!

[Thunderbox]

To expand a bit, the firing pressures involved in firing grenades (whether rodded or from a cup) were found to be less than actually firing normal ball ammunition - one reason why worn out rifles were originally used as GF rifles. Rodded grenades sometimes caused a ring or bulge in the barrel, but this was found to be relatively harmless - not even affecting shooting accuracy much. The biggest problem is the wear and tear on the rifle woodwork: the Text Book of Small Arms explains that MkVII ball ammo produces a recoil momentum of about 81 lb/f/s, whereas firing grenades gives about three times this value or - as they give by way of example - the equivalent of dropping the rifle 12-14 feet onto its butt!

[Peter Laidler]

The last EMER states that the wire or cord binding is to reinforce the rifle.............. And that if cord is used, then it must be painted over in shellac varnish, presumably to protect it.

The P'14 EY rifles were also reinforced at the small of the butt.

I've been giving some thought to another point TBox and even though rodded grenades were mentioned, the same criteria will have applied to the later line throwers. I wouldn't quite agree that a bulge caused by (any) grenade firing was relatively harmless. I'd suggest that it was pretty harmfull because at that point, the barrel has exceeded the matallurgical point of its elasticity and there's only one place it can go after that............ and that's forwards! A bulged barrel was not even acceptable on the most lowly sub-standard or DP rifle or even a No4DP rifle or even a DP Bren barrel. So far as I remember/recall, a bulge was not even permitted on a No2 or 7 rifle (I don't know about the N9 - anyone out there have it in writing?) but three were permitted on the No8 but that was subject to and after an accuracy test from the Enfield rest at Base Workshop

[Thunderbox]

The last EMER states that the wire or cord binding is to reinforce the rifle.............. And that if cord is used, then it must be painted over in shellac varnish, presumably to protect it.

The P'14 EY rifles were also reinforced at the small of the butt.

I've been giving some thought to another point TBox and even though rodded grenades were mentioned, the same criteria will have applied to the later line throwers. I wouldn't quite agree that a bulge caused by (any) grenade firing was relatively harmless. I'd suggest that it was pretty harmfull because at that point, the barrel has exceeded the matallurgical point of its elasticity and there's only one place it can go after that............ and that's forwards! A bulged barrel was not even acceptable on the most lowly sub-standard or DP rifle or even a No4DP rifle or even a DP Bren barrel. So far as I remember/recall, a bulge was not even permitted on a No2 or 7 rifle (I don't know about the N9 - anyone out there have it in writing?) but three were permitted on the No8 but that was subject to and after an accuracy test from the Enfield rest at Base Workshop

Sure, but I was just paraphrasing the information in the Text Book of Small Arms (1929) p360:

"rodded grenades occasionally produce a ring-bulge in the bore at the seat of the rod.The bulge occurs quite accidentally, it may be the first round or it may not be till a thousand have been fired. The cause appears to be a wave of gas breaking like a sea wave exactly on the face of the end of the rod. Such bulges do very little harm to the grouping power of the rifle. They probably do not improve the size of the group, but from actual ad hoc experiments with a dozen rifles during the war it was impossible to prove that the ring bulge did any positive harm."

Whilst the quote appears to be talking about shooting performance, the section is actually in the section of the ToSA that deals with the strength and longevity of actions and barrels.

[Warren]

British produced Pattern 17 wire wrapped launching rifle....... Unfortunately you cannot see the red "none standard calibre" markings on the front handguard and end of the stock. The rifle is an very early Winchester Pattern 17, but note the reinforcing both on the rear of the stock as well as the barrel.


---------- Post added at 08:55 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:51 AM ----------

Also a picture of the cord wrapped No.1. Anyone else have a cord wrapped launching rifle??? I've only seen one or two in private hands, so wondered if any more in the group.

[Peter Laidler]

Cord wrapped............ Yep, got two of them Warren! The cording was described as '..... pullthrough cord off the roll'. Presumably a roll of cord that could be used by quartermasters as pullthrough cord. Don't ask me how......, I suppose someone knew how to splice the loops in! The fact that P'14's are bound at the wrist makes the point that the whipping (with cord or wire) was in fact to reinforce the rifle as opposed to anything else

As a matter of interest, and going off at a tangent as I'm oft to do............ Where a pullthrough is described with a 'B' prefix, as PULLTHROUGH, B, B2/CR xxxxxxx, this indicates that the cord is protected against mildew etc etc for foreign climes. The preservative normally gave the pullthrough a greenish tint

[Warren]

I was aware the Pattern Room had one and knew of a few more in museums, but not sure of private hands.......anyone ???

[breakeyp]

I have two cord wrapped as well and a wire wrapped No. 4 as well as a smattering of various line throwers. Other than the ones I bought, I have never seen any cord wrapped rifles in the "wild."