Australian use of old Ross sniper rifles in WWII??

[gwahlert]

I recently interviewed a 92 yr old veteran of the Kokoda Track (Papua New Guinea WWII). His mind was sharp, as was his memory. He was emphatic that his battalion, the 3rd Bn, was issued with six old (assumed he meant WWI vintage) Canadian sniper rifles, with scopes, in late 1942. Most of the Australian snipers were issued with either the British (but made in USA) P14 sniper rifle, or heavy barrel Lee Enfield SMLE HT, in late 1942. But these went first to the 2nd AIF - his militia Bn got what ever was left. This is the first I've heard of the Australians using the Ross rifle. Has anyone know of the Aust Army using or even having Ross rifles?
Thanx, Glenn

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[browningautorifle]

That's very interesting Glenn...I could see the sniper rifles being held in reserves somewhere and eventually coming to light when needed.

[ssj]

That's very interesting Glenn...I could see the sniper rifles being held in reserves somewhere and eventually coming to light when needed.

Its interesting trying to fathom how that time was from here 70+ years later. Officially the book I have says many WW1 sniper rifles were recalled after the war and dismantled and some parts kept. At the start of ww2 from what I can read some P14s at least were "re-engineered" for sniper use using stored ww1 scopes until the no4 mk1T was available with its new scope. However I could quite believe that second or third line troops could have been handed anything that shoots. eg my maternal grandfather was in the home guard and actually used his own shotgun. He didnt mind apparantly as nights out patroling the local beaches allowed him to knab rabbits and put meat on the household table. So I guess 6 Ross's sitting in OZ somehow with scopes and handed to rear line troops is possible.....

---------- Post added at 02:23 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:20 PM ----------

[QUOTE=8><----It's not impossible that some Rosses made their way from India to Australia or the Pacific Theatre, we just haven't seen any photos AFAIK.
.[/QUOTE]

Ive seen a few Ross's in auctions now, seem to average about 2 per auction, ex mil ones and not sporters, Id guess they were brought home from ww1...

[Surpmil]

You should ask more questions such as "where was the scope mounted: overhead or offset", "was the bolt different from the Lee Enfield in any way?" (not giving away the straight pull aspect ;-) )

I've come to the conclusion that there was a lot of confusion between the P14 and the Ross in the minds of many soldiers. Tom Barker, whose memoirs "Sniper on Crete" are online, was also told that his rifle was a Ross. I corresponded with him and we determined from the features that he could definitely remember, that his rifle was an Alex Martin converted P14 with an offset scope, probably an Aldis No2 or No3. He also told me where he put it before he was ordered to surrender, so one day I shall visit that part of Crete!

It's not impossible that some Rosses made their way from India to Australia or the Pacific Theatre, we just haven't seen any photos AFAIK.

One has to remember that 99.9999% of soldiers are not firearms enthusiasts: a rifle is just a tool to them and they remember only the most distinctive features as most people would. In the case of the Ross and P14 that is the one piece stock and the projecting barrel.

The straight pull is the kicker though.

Ask him if he or any of his former mates have any photos showing their rifles.

[martins8589]

You should ask more questions such as "where was the scope mounted: overhead or offset", "was the bolt different from the Lee Enfield in any way?" (not giving away the straight pull aspect ;-) )

I've come to the conclusion that there was a lot of confusion between the P14 and the Ross in the minds of many soldiers. Tom Barker, whose memoirs "Sniper on Crete" are online, was also told that his rifle was a Ross. I corresponded with him and we determined from the features that he could definitely remember, that his rifle was an Alex Martin converted P14 with an offset scope, probably an Aldis No2 or No3. He also told me where he put it before he was ordered to surrender, so one day I shall visit that part of Crete!

It's not impossible that some Rosses made their way from India to Australia or the Pacific Theatre, we just haven't seen any photos AFAIK.

One has to remember that 99.9999% of soldiers are not firearms enthusiasts: a rifle is just a tool to them and they remember only the most distinctive features as most people would. In the case of the Ross and P14 that is the one piece stock and the projecting barrel.

The straight pull is the kicker though.

Ask him if he or any of his former mates have any photos showing their rifles.

I have both a Ross MKIII and a P14. The P14 is by way far the kicker. My 13yo shoots the Ross with no recoil problems but avoids tha P14 like the plauge.

[DocAV]

A thing that adds to the Ross Rifle-P14 Confusion is that in Czechoslovakia and other Eastern European Nations, the "P14" was known as the "Ross-Enfield" for some strange reason
(found this moniker in a Czech Language Bayonet Book I picked up in Prague, 1993).

The Soviets also used this name for Both The P14 ( from Estonia etc) and the Ross Rifle ( Aid to the Czar in 1916).

Australia used P14 rifles with either British Aldis Patt.18 scopes or set up in Australia with AOC-made Scopes (P18); the SMLE HT did not get into production until 1944, and very few were issued before mid-1945;
Plenty of photos exist of the 2/2Commandos in Timor with P14 (F)(T)...Winchester (F) rifles were preferentially used (F==Fine Micrometer rear sight), and also of use in North Africa and Greece.
Britain had dismantled all its SMLE snipers of WW I, and a lot of the P14s as well. Hence the rapid development of the No4 HT, and the recall of any P14s still in good order in 1939.

As to Aussie Use of Ross with Warner and Swasey scopes... who knows??? Skennerton's deep investigation of Aussie Service Rifles did not pick any up, whilst scoring "Ring Ins" like the Dutch Johnsons ( KNIL Air Force attached to RAAF) and Canadian No4 Rifles ( diverted to Australia after Fall of Hong Kong and used by RAAF and In training Units in southern Australia).

Doc AV

[Surpmil]

I have both a Ross MKIII and a P14. The P14 is by way far the kicker. My 13yo shoots the Ross with no recoil problems but avoids tha P14 like the plauge.

That's interesting, but I can't say why that might be!

OP: any update on the 92 year old vet?

[martins8589]

That's interesting, but I can't say why that might be!

OP: any update on the 92 year old vet?

I think it is due to the length of the barrel and stock -weight of the Ross.

Minimal recoil is felt with the M96 Swede rifle over the carbine as well.

[eliwhitley@yahoo.com]

A Ross MK IIIB it has P14 type sights and markings that seem to indicate a connection Lithgo in Australia. The marking are as follows.

On receiver Serial number 5483 under a capital letter A, a crown over crossed lances with a p under lances and the usual Ross M 10.

On barrel again crown lances and p, a crown 2C with an E under it, a large arrow head?, a large letter N and something very small I can't make out.

Stock has markings removed.

[green]

"Australian Service Longarms" lists such arms as the M1873 Winchester and Johnson M1941 but no mention of Ross rifles.