Un-issued no4 enfields from 1940~1945 bull?

[ssj]

Seems Enfields are fast appreciating in value here in NZ (or what some ppl think others will pay). What I am seeing on the auctions are claims of un-issued 1940, 41, 42, 43 enfields, some "still in their grease". Given all Ive read about how desperate the British were early war for anything that would shoot a bullet I really find it un-believeable there would be a number of un-issued no4 mk1 or no4 mk1*s? (im seeing LB as well) Here it almost seems to be 1 or 2 a month appear on trademe (NZ's ebay), is that really that possible?

"sure thing. It really is a tight Lee Enfield, an unissued example."

"Made by long branch in 1942"

is typical....?

Information

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[lngstrt]

There was a Savage #4 here in Phoenix a couple weeks ago. The seller touted it as American tax dollars returned to the US from Britain, unused etc., etc. $500

Great big 'Arrow in U' South African marking on top of the receiver.

Hard to accept that any WWII vintage #4 remained unissued. Some post war Mk2's maybe. What did the Brits use in Korea? I have an 'Irish Contract' serial numbered #4 that looks moderately well used. When and by who?

[ssj]

There are I think definately some later no4 mk2s that were stored, we have a few here in NZ, some still in the wrappers, some taken out and shot and others in here have shown pics of theirs from Canada and US. What I do see is that all the mk1 and mk1* would have been used hard and then FTR'd to 1/2 and 1/3, or sold out of service, or scrapped. I could then understand 1/2s and 1/3s being mothballed as mk2's were.

What Im really doubting is the honesty of some ppl......

[tomwolf26]

there was a No4 Mki 1941 up for sale on trade around a month ago. the seller claimed he bought it unissued wraped in grease and only fired 20 rounds through it, but in the picture the bolt has lost some 80% of its blue.... must be a lot of bolt cycling for that 20 rounds

[Peter Laidler]

As a matter of interest Tomwolf, I was an Armourer ar the huge Ordnance Depot at Ngaruawahia during the 1967/68 when NZ was divesting itself of a load of No4's and I SAW with my own eyes the sealed crates of rifles that had been stored since they arrived during the war. I have written this all down on this forum if you want the full story, but in short, even if they were wrapped in grease, then NOTHING would/could have saved them from the ravages of the deck-cargo journey over, believe me. When some of the still sealed crates were opened by S/Sgts Danny Booker and Frank Sculley, they were just totally rust encrusted virtually unidentifiable heaps of pure iron oxide. No amount of grease or greased paper could have saved them. I recall that the inside of the 20-rifle crates were lined with a tar paper liner.

Canadian Bren guns were the same although I only saw a couple of crates of those, say 30 guns. All written off on-site by WO2 Annandale and countersigned by Capt Reece the Ordnance Depot 2i/c as I seem to recall (or was it workshop boss Leo Francis?)

In my opinion, the only ones that survived were those taken out of crates, cleaned off and put into service. Don't believe me? Then another forum member who was there at the time, and another ex REME man, the late KimW saw the same with other kit being readied for disposal at the Ordnance Depot at Sylvia Park in Auckland.

I'd say let your eyes and gauges be the best judge OR being a bit brutal - but pragmatic - buy the rifle and not the fairy stories that are attached to them!

Anyone still see/in contact with Kim's family?

[tomwolf26]

always some interest stories shared from you
and i guess the other lesson is to always check the rifle before buying, coz many ppl think these unissued rifles well packed in factory grease must be in good nick ...

As a matter of interest Tomwolf, I was an Armourer ar the huge Ordnance Depot at Ngaruawahia during the 1967/68 when NZ was divesting itself of a load of No4's and I SAW with my own eyes the sealed crates of rifles that had been stored since they arrived during the war. I have written this all down on this forum if you want the full story, but in short, even if they were wrapped in grease, then NOTHING would/could have saved them from the ravages of the deck-cargo journey over, believe me. When some of the still sealed crates were opened by S/Sgts Danny Booker and Frank Sculley, they were just totally rust encrusted virtually unidentifiable heaps of pure iron oxide. No amount of grease or greased paper could have saved them. I recall that the inside of the 20-rifle crates were lined with a tar paper liner.

Canadian Bren guns were the same although I only saw a couple of crates of those, say 30 guns. All written off on-site by WO2 Annandale and countersigned by Capt Reece the Ordnance Depot 2i/c as I seem to recall (or was it workshop boss Leo Francis?)

In my opinion, the only ones that survived were those taken out of crates, cleaned off and put into service. Don't believe me? Then another forum member who was there at the time, and another ex REME man, the late KimW saw the same with other kit being readied for disposal at the Ordnance Depot at Sylvia Park in Auckland.

I'd say let your eyes and gauges be the best judge OR being a bit brutal - but pragmatic - buy the rifle and not the fairy stories that are attached to them!

Anyone still see/in contact with Kim's family?

[mrbungle]

like peter said, buy the rifle ,not the story......words to live by....

[newcastle]

Not sure about New Zealand but recently there was a box of 4 consecutively numbered NO.4's sold in their crate for about $5000. I'm certain the winner of the auction lurks on here somewhere. I was short by several thousand dollars. there are rumors of quite a few of these lurking in France of all places but not being released yet due to some law or other.

[5thBatt]

There are plenty of near mint to mint No4s in NZ but some of these claims made on TM are a little OTT but still, they are out there. As for the No4s that have been on TM of late with high prices.....they are not selling, my "lost" list is full of unsold No4s

[ssj]

5thBatt, Ive been watching for TM 8 or 9 months, cant say Ive seen many near mint in fact very few or I must be going blind. I sure have seen a lot of worn out guns and "interesting" claims though ;] My lost is packed as well, <$250 seem to sell, but Ive lost cound of muzzles Ive seen so worn out the barrel bore is oval. Then there is "Ted's auctions" or how to pull scrap out of a skip and hope ppl will buy it.....a collection of mangled and wornout rifles you'd cry over.

ah well.....as someone said, an era is passing...I'd better start saving for that Lego(TM) AR15....

PS if you see good no4s, do let me know, I'd like to collect a few....got a bug....LOL.