Berthier Mle 1916 carbine

[vintage hunter]

Went to town to gather a few parts for a job and as usual ended up in the pawn shop. Have'nt been to this particular one in better than a year and was surprised at the number of milsurps in the rack. Most were the usual bubba cut downs but there were a few nice unmessed with examples in the lot. Saw a decent Westinghouse M91, a 91/59 carbine along with several 91/30's, a Schmidt Ruben 1889 and various mausers. Almost didn't see the little Frenchie on the bottom rack, it was crammed in between a pair of sportered Enfields.
It is complete, all the screws, bands and cleaning rod are there, all serial numbers that I could see matched, wood is solid no cracks or splits and only one deep gouge. Overall metal finish looked good except the bolt which has turned brown. Bore is clean, bright and shiney.
No photo's yet, got delayed on the background check for some reason. Should have it by Thursday at the latest and will post a few then.
I've seen quite a few Mle 1892's and the odd 1890 around in the past but this is the first 1916 I've ever seen. The books I have are old and don't go into a lot of detail about French rifles but they do say the 1916 carbine is rather rare, not many were produced. What do the more up to date books say about this?

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[Aragorn243]

Based on what I see for sale, the 1916 carbine is the most common Berthier there is. Wish I had your pawn shop near me. Milsurps are hard to find here in any condition except for shows and auctions.

Peterson's doesn't say anything special about them. Just a one sentence listing. Price is the same for the long rifle and less than the earlier 3 shot version. All Berthiers are less than the Lebels.

[vintage hunter]

The city that this shop is located in is 45 miles away and the structural steel supplier there I dealt with for better than 10 years went belly up in 2012 so I don't get up that way often anymore. I think the guy the owns this pawn shop has keyed in on the rising interest and values of milsurps over the last year or so. Most pawn shops around here seem to have quit fooling with milsurps altogether. At least half(more if you count the modern semi auto's) of the long guns he has now are milsurps. Last time I was there he had less than a dozen and most of those were sportered. I just can't quite figure out what he bases his prices on. Some will be inline with what they normally go for at gun shows and auctions while others will be priced stupidly high.
I managed to locate some 5 round Berthier clips but I believe I'm up the creek on ammo, None to be had anywhere. And all I've seen so far will be FMJ when and if it ever becomes available again, not very useful for hunting purposes.
Handloading doesn't seem to offer many advantages with this caliber either. It requires an oddball diameter bullet of .327'' and the only ones I could locate were of the FMJ variety and a bit pricey at $38/100 plus shipping. Cases range from .63 to .80 cents each and I haven't worked up the courage to price dies yet. Then there's the shellholder, case trimmer, load data and...not sure I'm gonna even bother with getting set up to load for it just yet. Not going to shoot it that much anyway.
I have a couple original Ball D rounds in my collection and one has developed neck splits so I pulled the bullet for measuring and found it to have a dual diameter shank. From the base up to the cannelure measures .321'', only a narrow band approx. 1/8'' wide above the cannelure actually measured .327''.

[Patrick Chadwick]

I haven't worked up the courage to price dies yet.

There is an affordable Lee set.

[Aragorn243]

Ammo isn't as bad as some, it's out there. I've run into it at gun shows and a few army/navy stores. Privi makes it and I think a few others still make it but most all ammo is hard to get due to our current circumstances. I don't have a lot but I have a few boxes.

[vintage hunter]

Oh yeah? Well why not be a good lad and locate some for me. Every distributor I deal with lists it as out of stock, temporarily unavailable.
Anyhow, the CIA FBI IRS NTSB LIC or whoever it is that does the back ground checks must've got it in high gear and cleared all the delayed reguests from yesterday because I got the call to come fetch it this a.m.. Once I got it out on the street in the bright light I realized just how caked with crud it really was. The whole thing was covered in cosmoline and the stock reminded me of the sucker the kids hid in the couch cushion last year. After 4 hours of scrubbing it's coming along nicely. Soon as the blisters heal I'll finish it up. In the mean time here's a few photo's of how it is now.

[Aragorn243]

Having the cleaning rod is a rarity. Most of these had the channel filled with a wood strip during later rebuilds. Looks like a real nice one. Bayonet will most likely run you $130 or so.

[vintage hunter]

I just ran across some info on Berthiers while researching this thing that says if it is lacking the N conversion stamp on barrel shank and receiver that indicates it had been converted to fire the 1932 Ball N cartridge then they are dangerous to use with modern ammo, possibly including reduced power handloads. Mine lacks this stamp. I also read that the PRVI 8x50R Lebel ammo is a virtual duplicate of the old Ball D loading. Now I'm confused. Have I unknowingly bought something I can't shoot?
What did the Ball N conversion consist of? Is what I read about the PRVI ammo on the level and is it safe for use in my unconverted carbine? Questions, questions, questions. Anybody got the answers?
S/N on cleaning rod is a match to all the others found elsewhere on the other parts. And no import marks either.

[Aragorn243]

The "N" cartridge has a slightly larger neck size and I believe the rifles were rechambered for this. If not rechambered it could result in too high pressures using the "N" cartridge because the case can't expand enough to let the bullet out.

Modern cartridges are loaded to the "D" specifications for the most part but double check before purchase or use. As the rifle is designed for "D", they shouldn't be a problem. The "N" cartridges would be military surplus made after 1932 so deinitely stay clear of these.

You got a very good piece there with everything matching. THAT also makes it rare. Just being a 1916 doesn't but the cleaning rod and matching numbers and apparent condition, you got a steal.

[vintage hunter]

Yah I found out they aren't that rare while researching earlier. Ran across some info that put total production numbers in the 800,000 range. Interesting also is the 1916 carbine was the longest serving member of the Berthier line. It stayed in use with some French police forces until the 60's.
That's good news on the PRVI ammo. Now to find some. Sorta figured it involved changing the throat dimensions, same with the Finn D166 conversion in Mosin Nagants. That's why the Ball D bullet has a smaller diameter below the cannelure I suppose.