Appreciate help identifying my Enfield No4 with scope pads but not a real (T)

[repto]

I would appreciate some help identifying my Enfield No4. I bought it because it had the scope mount pads for a No4 (T) but it is not a real one as far as I know. As you can see it says in the pictures it is a No4 Mk 1/2. I want to try to restore it as best I can and as it isn't quite the real thing I don't feel too bad about getting a reproduction scope mount for it. It also looks quite at home with a vintage JC Higgins 2.5 Rifleman scope, which is not right either but I can't afford a Chinese No 32 reproduction and certainly not the real thing. All in all, It's probably about as close as I will get to the Real (T) anytime soon.

But what is it really? Number on socket is 036360 with no other markings, I have included pictures of sort-of-matching magazine that appears to have had it's old number scored out and bolt.

Any additional information is very much appreciated, thanks.

Mark

Information

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[Maxwell Smart]

It looks to have been in Indian service at some time; the cross screw in the fore-end, and the "RFI" marks on the cocking piece seem to indicate this.

The serial prefix looks more like a "U" rather than an "O" to me, particularly on the magazine.

[vintage hunter]

What markings, if any, are on the right side of the butt socket? I think there's a good chance it's the real deal that was converted to 1/2 spec while in Indian service. Only thing throwing me is it retains it's Brit serial number. AFAIK during rebuild the Indians scrubbed most all the original marking and replaced them with their own, especially the s/n which usually begins with an A and ends with a T, Example...AxxxxT

[repto]

There's nothing on the other side that I can see.

[Paul S.]

The bodgie black enamel paint says "India" as well.

[Surpmil]

You may well have a genuine "T" there, just one from the earlier production before the various markings we're familiar with had been standardized. Quite a few of these rifles still around. The Injuns have hand stamped the markings on the side wall as after three coats of that roofing tar, or whatever they use, the original electric penciling is buried deep.*sarcasm*

I would glass bead all that crap off and refinish it. You might even get those horrible stampings on the side wall filled with tig welding and smooth off before grit blasting and parkerizing it. That is if the barrel is very good and the bolt matches; otherwise probably not worth bothering.

Might as well restock it too and get rid of that Ishy screw nonsense while you're at it.

Then send it down to BDL for a coat of Suncorite?

[PrinzEugen]

On the other hand... I woudn't necessarily change anything as it's all part of the rifle's history.
If genuine it served in the British army as a sniper in WW2 - then went to India (by reputation most of those that went there were 'well used' ie saw action) and was used by the Indian army for the same purpose. It's an interesting past - why wipe half of it away?
More pics of the receiver, pads and possibly barrel markings might be instructive.

[Roger Payne]

I'm almost 100% certain that you do have a genuine BSA Shirley 1945 manufacture No4 T that has had the pleasure of being refurbished by the Indians.
Are you sure it's been converted to Mk1/2 as it still has a Mk1 fore end on it? Also, whilst I've not seen hundreds of T's that were passed on to the Indians I have seen several dozen, & all of the ones that were converted to Mk1/2 T were also the ones that had their butt sockets linished clean & the new Indian designation applied to the RHS (SMLE style); & were also given a new serial number, which yours does not have (It's a U prefix BSA rifle, which would date it to 1945). What one does find with the rifles that were left as Mk1's is the horrible untidy hand stamped 'No4 Mk1' ploughed into the receiver side wall. Most of the rifles left as Mk1's, whilst retaining most or all of their original Brit markings, also had the receiver side wall markings 'freshened up' in this way.
I was lucky to find a couple of rifles, admittedly years ago, that had not been so marked, & apart from the 'Ishy screw' they are exactly as per UK issue, & for that reason I have kept them.
I can't be sure, because even though not linished clean, the rifle has clearly been through Indian ordnance so will have been blasted etc., but if you do as surpmil says, & remove the quarter inch deep black paint, you may be able to discern M47/C & a date of 1945. Just depends if you want to refinish it or not.

But anyway, be pleased. You have a real T!!!!

P.S. Is it my eyes, but does the '/2' in the side wall 'No4 Mk1/2' designation look recently added? I would certainly not expect an Indian Mk1/2T to bear it's original serial number as this one does. It would generally be given a number starting with a letter A & ending with a letter T & be marked on the receiver ring SMLE style. Could a previous owner have thought (wrongly) that all Indian T's were converted to Mk1/2 & so he'd better alter his as well?????? Not withstanding this, I still think it is a genuine Indian issued Mk1 (probably) T & I'm delighted for the OP.

[Ridolpho]

repto: Were it mine I'd leave it as is. If it were being offered to me for sale I wouldn't pay less because of its history- in fact to me it makes it more appealing than some of the like-new examples that show no sign of hard use. Congratulations on a great find.

Ridolpho

[Alan de Enfield]

Attachment 50790

The serial number is "right" - here is my No4T converted to an L42
Assuming yours is a U then we are only 297 between them

Yours U36360
Mine U36063