No.4 Mk1 (T) on GunBroker

[gsthreeeight]

V'nice looking scope, but several other things don't appear quite correct.

Opinions?

Enfield No. 4 MK 1 (T) Sniper Rifle, .303, M47 BSA : Bolt Action Rifles at GunBroker.com



GS38

Information

Warning: This is a relatively older thread This discussion is older than 360 days. Some information contained in it may no longer be current.

[Gil Boyd]

Crikey where do you start???

[Roger Payne]

Ok. I'll stick my neck out & start the ball rolling!

The scope & bracket are fine. Woodwork has been lightly sanded at some point. The cheekpiece is fine. The butt is also quite possibly off a genuine T but I suspect has been refitted to this rifle (it bears the serial number of an early Mk3 scope which would date it to the tail end of 1944 or very early 1945, NOT 1943). The markings on the butt socket of the rifle caught my attention & for a while I was agonising over whether even the M47 & the 1943 had been applied latterly, but I now doubt it. Certainly the M47 without the 'C' would be quite acceptable on a 1943 rifle, as BSA only started marking the 'C' part way through 1943. The absence of the 'D6E' examiner's mark on the left rear of the bolt guide way is also nothing unusual on a rifle of this vintage & certainly does not mean it must be a fake. It is clear that the 'FTR' was applied at a later date, but one would expect that. The serial on the forend I suspect has been added in recent years, & appears to be marked in the opposite direction to that in which it is usually found. The serial number of the rifle as marked on the butt socket has definitely been re-stamped, perhaps as the original number was very faintly marked with an electric pencil. This is very common. Having said that, if that is the case, they forgot to mark the two letter prefix that should precede a typical 1943 era BSA serial number. It should be a four digit number preceded by 'A' & another letter (BSA started with AA, then AB, AC, AD, etc during 1943). Thus the 7282 could originally have been 'AB 7282', or 'AK 7282', for example. The other alternative being that the '7282' is a completely new number with which it has been stamped.

As usual, the vendors have given us lots of photo's with the scope on the rifle, but one of the most important things to take a good look at in assessing the 'bona fides' of a 4T is to get a really good look at the body pads & their fit to the receiver - which really means scope off. Most fakers don't come anywhere near the standard of workmanship of H&H, RSAF Enfield Lock, or Long Branch. Having said that, from what I can see IMHO it is probably right.

It may have some issues, but I think it is a real one. This is only my two cents' worth but I hope it helps.

ATB

[Brian Dick]

I'm with DRP. Honest rifle with a mismatch scope and bracket.

[Gil Boyd]

Agree in principal with that writeup Roger, presumably a waterproofed version fitted later with the bracket with no stake marks on the screws which is unusual on the pads for the year?

[Surpmil]

IMO the bolt is not original and is probably not a service fitting: the serial number struck through the paint is not encouraging. Nor does the paint and phosphating underneath, if any, look convincing. I think we all know how the original bolt would have differed.

If the SN was just being overstruck for clarity, why would the letters not be struck as well? Could be a civilian who didn't have access to letter stamps, or could be that phenomenon that the BATF takes an interest in: the firearm with a defaced and replaced serial number.

On the other hand, the FTR and 7282 on the butt socket seem to be struck through the paint as well...not all armourers are equal in workmanship of course.

Overall, a typical bitzer using original parts; one of thousands and perfectly good for what it is.

More numbers for someone's spreadsheet of No4(T)s

[Roger Payne]

Thanks Rob. I clocked the replacement bolt but forgot to mention it. And I agree, I doubt very much that it was renumbered in UK or Commonwealth service.

Gil - yes, the Mk3 scope is a later replacement for whatever scope the rifle originally bore, but we'll never know the original scope serial as the butt is a replacement too. It would have been a Mk1 or an early Mk2.

ATB

[smle addict]

Just got around to reading this thread.

A while back, I posted some pics of a No4 TR I picked up for cheap, but was suspicious of. No T, no D6E, no S. 1943 BSA, FTR'd. General consensus was it is a legimite rifle, and probably saw service in india. The bolt on this rifle is stamped the same as the one being auctioned. And the serial number on the forend is stamped in the wrong direction as well (see attached pics). The wood on mine is not appear as nice, and it was packed with a very smelly grease/cosmoline. Smelled much like GAA lube (Grease, Axle & Artillery). Took forever to clean it.

[corco]

This one ended up selling for $2892.97 US dollars on gun broker.

1) I have a question about the bolt not being correct. I looked around on the Internet and I can't find what a correct (T) bolt looks like? Is the bolt in the link below an example of a (T) bolt? It is supposed to be on a 1944 less T rifle.

2) Also this Less T has the blue R and red W on the scope air brushed on using a stencil. Did they do that in 1945 to the scopes? I thought they were all hand painted with a brush?

Is This A Correct No 4 Mk 1 T Sniper Bolt Photos by bsdncorco | Photobucket

Note: it is missing the sling swivel right in front of the trigger guard... I thought all T's had this additional swivel? And the serial number stamping in the forend shows the round tool mark around the number which, from what I hav read, forgeries usually have this type of stamping.

3) Can less T rifles have any Holland and Holland stampings?

Thanks,

Corco

[Roger Payne]

There isn't a 'No4 (T) bolt' as such, but most T's were converted from BSA Shirley produced rifles, so an 'original bolt' would be the one it left the Solihull factory with. BSA never dropped the hole in the bolt handle knob, so if the bolt has a solid knob it's a replacement. BSA bolts also have either a letter 'B' (earlier production) or 'M47C' (later production) on the flat at the rear to the left of where the serial number is stamped - just next to the back end of the striker hole. They (BSA) also used a fairly characteristic font for their serials, which are generally pretty untidily stamped, though legible. When you've studied a few they are readily recognisable.

The 'W' & 'B' were stencilled on originally.

The triangular swivel was approved for fitting in 1944 (IIRC) & I have seen & owned a few rifles of early production that I suspect were never fitted with one before they were put into store. However, the swivel could quite easily be missing from a genuine rifle simply because someone decided to remove it.

I own a number of forends which are of impeccable provenance & they too show signs of the impression from the shank of the number punch around the number itself. I don't think you can be too prescriptive about this.

In my limited experience all of the unmuckedaboutwith scopeless 4T's I've seen bore the S51 of H&H on the under side of the butt.

Hope this helps.

ATB.