Ross Rifle Company M10 Military Rifle - $950 (Cdn)

[Badger]

Here's one for sale that you can compare to our own 1916 Mk. III Ross Rifle (click here) entry in the Canadian section (click here) of the Milsurp Knowledge Library.

I think there's a crack in the handguard showing in the one pic that's not mentioned and I believe CRB is Candian Railway Battalion, not Canadian Rangers.

Feedback and comments anyone?

Valley Guns - Ross Rifle Company M10 1910 Military Rifle (click here)

It is hard to imagine a working piece of Canadian history in such immaculate condition. For auction is a beautifully preserved Ross M10 Canadian Military rifle in .303 British.

The Ross was the only definitively Canadian rifle ever put into service. It was withdrawn and
discontinued from use in the Great War due to reliability in operation with the dirt that was ubiquitous in the unexpected environment of trench warfare. The Ross did, however, remain a favorite with snipers who valued the Ross for its accuracy.

This particular example is in immaculate condition. The wood is very clean, dark, and is free of any major flaws. The bore is bright with light pitting. This rifle is in working condition and I have fired it and cleaned it regularly - it is a living piece of Canadian History! The original finish is fading to a grey patina (beautiful!).

This Ross has a rare CRB marking. This designates it as being used by the Canadian Ranger Batallion. There are Dominion Proofs on various parts of the gun. I am unsure if it was issued to the Rangers after it was withdrawn from the war or if it was purpose built for that contract.

The butt trap has an (original?) bore snake style cleaning jag. Serial number on floor plate does not match. Complete rifle except for front sight hood.

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Payment methods include: E-Mail Money Transfer (prefered), Paypal, Money Order, Personal Cheque (allow 2 weeks to clear), or Cash (at your own risk).

Buy Now Price - $950.00 Cdn - SOLD!

Regards,
Badger

Information

Warning: This is a relatively older thread This discussion is older than 360 days. Some information contained in it may no longer be current.

[tiriaq]

According to The Ross Rifle Story, the Rangers were issued half stocked rifles with shortened barrels, and a unique replacement sight, but during WW2. Was there a "Canadian Ranger Batallion(sic)" during WW1? The handguard is cracked. The closeup of the breech shows rather odd, sloppy inletting, but I don't know what that signifies. None of mine look like that. The inletting should closely match the contours of the metal. Metal does seem to be in decent condition, lots of case colours on the bolt sleeve. I cannot make out anything on the right side of the butt; that is where the history of a Ross should be. There should be the Quebec roundel, the alpha/numeric serial number, and the date. If there is nothing there, either the stock has been redone, or it is a replacement stock. Its a later rifle with forged nosecap. The comment about a m/m serial number on the floorplate is puzzling. I suppose the seller is referring to the bottom of the magazine. Whatever number is there isn't a serial number, and was not placed there during manufacture. Handsome price realized, more than I would have thought. Hope the buyer knows what he bought.

[Oatmeal Savage]

"lots of case colours on the bolt sleeve" Were the bolt sleeves case-hardened? Mine looks very colourful after removing the black gloss paint.

[Badger]

I wrote the seller and asked him about his claim of it being issued to the Candian Ranger Battalion. Here's his response:

CRB does mean Canadian Ranger Battalion to the best of my knowledge, but also other sellers and collectors with more expertise. There is a similar Ranger gun for sale by Joe Salter in the United States and it has the same "CRB" marking. This is one of very few rifles issued to the Rangers.

I think Tiriaq is right. I've never heard of a Canadian Ranger Battalion in WW1, unless he's referring to it being issued to them post WWII etc....

Here's the Joe Salter sale - Ross MK111 (marked CRB) he's referring to.

SN 622, cal 303 with Rough bore. This is one of M-10 Ross Rifles which was the principal weapons of the Canadian expedtionary force in 1914 until it was replaced by the Lee Enfield. This piece is complete and is a collectors piece not recommended for shooting. The rifle is marked with various unit marks, is dated 1917, DP (Drill purpose) marked and also marked CRC (Canadian Ranger Battalion) the forerunner of the Canadian Rangers which were and are volunteers in the Northern parts of Canada and other frontier areas of the country who act as a form of Coast Wwatcher and are equipped with weapons provided by the Canadian Government. This Ross Rifle is one of the few noted to be issued to the ranger unit. My gratitude is extended to David Edgecombe for picking up this marking and bringing it to our attention. (see his great book "Defending The Dominion" in our book section. A neat example of WW1 Ross Rifle with the extra history note the Canadian Ranger Band is not included with the Rifle. FFL or C & R Please

I did some "googling" and I found this:

Alexander left for England on November 14th, 1916 onboard the S.S. Olympic – sister ship of the Titanic. The S.S. Olympic carried a large percentage of Canadian troops to war, as the Canadian military had contracted the ship in 1915. The voyage across the Atlantic took six days. By now, command had decided that new battalions, upon arrival in England, would be collapsed into reserve battalions. The 173rd Bn. was collapsed into the 2nd Canadian Reserve Battalion, stationed in Bramshott, England. The 2nd C.R.B. was a training battalion, designed to supply replacements to the front-line battalions in France. Alexander spent the winter of 1916 training in Bramshott.

On March 18th, 1917, Alexander was assigned to the 116th Canadian Infantry Battalion, Ontario County, and sent to France. The 116th Bn., commanded by Lieutenant-Colonel Sam Sharpe, had been transferred to France in February of 1917 as part of a government scheme to relate the number of battalions in Europe to the relative percentage of enlistments from that particular region. As Ontario had a larger percentage in rank than Quebec, two Montreal battalions (the 60th and the 73rd) had been transferred to England to join the 2nd C.R.B. and were replaced by the 116th.

So, I wonder if it's possible that the CRB is associated with Canadian Reserve Battalion?

Regards,
Badger

[tiriaq]

That Reserve association is entirely possible, and more likely than the suggested Ranger affiliation. More mundane though. Does anyone know exactly when Ranger units were created? Were there any Ranger Battalions during WW1? After Rosses were withdrawn from front line service, they were issued for other service. Many later ones never saw front line service at all. Mk. II and Mk. III rifles were extensively used during WW2 for training and non active service overseas uses. There were more Rosses in inventory in 1939 than SMLEs. The PCMR received .30-30 rifles, (as well as the first Stens issued to Cdn. forces) and the rifles were marked, although not with a CRB + number mark. I'm still surprised that the seller made no mention of butt markings, because they are the primary markings on any as-issued Ross. Nevertheless, he realized a very nice sale price. Perhaps this is a case of "buy the rifle, not the story". I like the price from the standpoint of the potential value of my Rosses, but not from the standpoint of buying additional ones.
As far as buying the rifle and not the story goes, the Salter rifle has patch repairs to the wood at the breech in positions corresponding to the position of the notches where the deactivation pin was inserted in the Indian drill rifles. The metal parts have no sign of this pin, so it is safe to assume that the rifle was restocked using the stock from a deactivated rifle. Many of these Indian deacts were broken for parts, and their stocks are about the only source of full length (albeit defaced) stocks in recent years. Surprising that Mr. Edgecombe didn't point out to Mr. Salter that the rifle is a restocked bitser.
Come to think about it, I think I've seen the Salter rifle before. 'Twas a lot less than the current asking price. Badger, if it is the rifle that I think it is, you've seen it. Or walked past it.

[Oatmeal Savage]

Well spotted, the deact bolt hole stock repair.

That Reserve association is entirely possible, and more likely than the suggested Ranger affiliation. More mundane though. Does anyone know exactly when Ranger units were created? Were there any Ranger Battalions during WW1? After Rosses were withdrawn from front line service, they were issued for other service. Many later ones never saw front line service at all. Mk. II and Mk. III rifles were extensively used during WW2 for training and non active service overseas uses. There were more Rosses in inventory in 1939 than SMLEs. The PCMR received .30-30 rifles, (as well as the first Stens issued to Cdn. forces) and the rifles were marked, although not with a CRB + number mark. I'm still surprised that the seller made no mention of butt markings, because they are the primary markings on any as-issued Ross. Nevertheless, he realized a very nice sale price. Perhaps this is a case of "buy the rifle, not the story". I like the price from the standpoint of the potential value of my Rosses, but not from the standpoint of buying additional ones.
As far as buying the rifle and not the story goes, the Salter rifle has patch repairs to the wood at the breech in positions corresponding to the position of the notches where the deactivation pin was inserted in the Indian drill rifles. The metal parts have no sign of this pin, so it is safe to assume that the rifle was restocked using the stock from a deactivated rifle. Many of these Indian deacts were broken for parts, and their stocks are about the only source of full length (albeit defaced) stocks in recent years. Surprising that Mr. Edgecombe didn't point out to Mr. Salter that the rifle is a restocked bitser.
Come to think about it, I think I've seen the Salter rifle before. 'Twas a lot less than the current asking price. Badger, if it is the rifle that I think it is, you've seen it. Or walked past it.

[Oatmeal Savage]

According to David Edgcombe, author of "Defending the Dominion: Canadian Military Rifles, 1855-1955" CRB stands for the Canadian Rangers.

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