Question Regarding Volley or Long Range Sights on the No 1 Mk III

[Bluenoser]

I am about to start my next restoration project and could use a little guidance.

It is a Canadian issued 1916 BSA Sht LE Mk III (not III*). I would like to restore it back to as-issued configuration complete with volley (long range) sights, but am not sure it would be appropriate for the year of manufacture. I understand the Mk III* was approved in January of 1916 and the associated List of Changes stated with regard to the Mk III “In future manufacture, rifles of the above-mentioned pattern may embody any of the following modifications:

(a) The omission of long range sights (dial and aperture) ……..”

Choice of the word “may” implies that rifles equipped with long range sights could have been produced well beyond early 1916. I believe they were, but have nothing concrete to base that on.

What are your thoughts?

Information

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[Thunderbox]

Probably 99% of all MkIII came out of WW1 without volley sights anyway - nearly all of them were restocked during the war.

Frankly, unless the rifle is a specimen that survives with its volley sights intact, then its most "original" form as it was last in service would be with cut-off but without the volleys.

[Bluenoser]

Valid comments and I agree completely. I have restored several back to last in service configuration as best I could determine it. My objective this time around is to restore it back to as issued configuration and I would like that to include long range sights, if appropriate, since that is so rarely seen on a No. 1 today.

[Bindi2]

Valid comments and I agree completely. I have restored several back to last in service configuration as best I could determine it. My objective this time around is to restore it back to as issued configuration and I would like that to include long range sights, if appropriate, since that is so rarely seen on a No. 1 today.

One problem you will have is if the forend has been replaced and is not a transitional forend there is no palm swell where the dial sight goes. Finding the right marked sights may also be a problem ( they are not all the same) .
The other issue I see is you maybe devaluing a rifle by doing that conversion unless it is a total rebuild from parts in which case the value will never be there in a representative piece.
I dont consider them rare just not as plentiful as MK111* as I have more than enough in my collection of Lithgow and Brit rifles.

[Roy]

I consider them rare as they rarely come up for sale. there are plenty of collectors out there with a dozen MkIII's with volley sights in their collections. however these days the acquisition of a totally correct MkIII with volley sights is difficult, and fairly expensive unless you get a lucky deal, the last MkIII I saw for sale here in NZ on the open market was nearly $1000. I agree with Bindi that if your rifle is as it was issued after a rebuild modifying it will devalue it, also it is quite likely that is left BSA without volley sights anyway. However if its already a mixmaster and you have maybe less than mint forend with the 'bulge' for the dial sight, i'd go for it if you have the skills and tools. I did it for my NZ marked BSA 1908. I had a ratty forend which I pulled form a boneyard in OZ, I used a pillar drill, sharp curved chisels and some spade bits which I filed to the exact size. I was also lucky enough to have the sported forend which provided the pattern which I also did a practice run on. If you's like some pics of my work ill post them up

[Colonel Enfield]

I consider them rare as they rarely come up for sale. there are plenty of collectors out there with a dozen MkIII's with volley sights in their collections. however these days the acquisition of a totally correct MkIII with volley sights is difficult, and fairly expensive unless you get a lucky deal, the last MkIII I saw for sale here in NZ on the open market was nearly $1000. I agree with Bindi that if your rifle is as it was issued after a rebuild modifying it will devalue it, also it is quite likely that is left BSA without volley sights anyway.

This has been my experience too - I cannot remember the last time I saw a Mk III (no star) with the cut-off AND the volley sights AND the windage adjustable rear sights for sale. Like yourself, I have no doubt there are plenty of them in private collections, but they don't seem to leave those collections often. I asked around recently looking for one, without any luck at all - a surprising number of people didn't know they even made .303s with volley sights or windage adjustable sights. I'm told the Mk IIIs come up for sale sometimes at the twice-yearly big arms auction in Melbourne, but the prices from that frequently seem waaaaaaay out of my budget.

[Homer]

This has been my experience too - I cannot remember the last time I saw a Mk III (no star) with the cut-off AND the volley sights AND the windage adjustable rear sights for sale. Like yourself, I have no doubt there are plenty of them in private collections, but they don't seem to leave those collections often. I asked around recently looking for one, without any luck at all - a surprising number of people didn't know they even made .303s with volley sights or windage adjustable sights. I'm told the Mk IIIs come up for sale sometimes at the twice-yearly big arms auction in Melbourne, but the prices from that frequently seem waaaaaaay out of my budget.

But isn't that the point. They are priced according to availability.

[Roy]

High price due to low availability = Rare.


Just noticed a nice looking 1910 LSA on 'our site' has not hit reserve, vendor has a few nice pieces, will not allow a viewing.

[5thBatt]

High price due to low availability = Rare.


Just noticed a nice looking 1910 LSA on 'our site' has not hit reserve, vendor has a few nice pieces, will not allow a viewing.

Go Wanganui!

[Colonel Enfield]

But isn't that the point. They are priced according to availability.

Well, theoretically. I don't think the usual economic laws of supply & demand apply to military surplus guns though - a fairly average condition .303 is running to at least $500 in Australia nowadays, despite every gunshop I've been in having several of them in the racks and often several more out the back which they haven't worked out what to do with yet. If it's in pretty good or better shape, you can be looking at $750+

Luger pistols in the US seems to be same - fetching silly money despite in no way being rare. (They're rarer in Australia because their barrels are too short for ownership on a sports handgun licence, but they're still about on the collector's market, also for silly prices).

Now, I'm not saying an original Mk III shouldn't be expensive - they're clearly rare - I'm just backing up Roy's observation they hardly ever seem to come up for sale, and when they do, they're very, very expensive. I think it's important to back up people's anecdoatal experiences in these situations if they match your own, because in my experience if you say something like "Mk IIIs are rare, they hardly ever come up for sale", you're quite likely to get a (well-meaning) poster saying "That's not true, my local gun dealer in Moose Wedgie Creek, Wyoming has a rack full of them, all matching, for $425 each", and then the original poster looks foolish when it's the second poster whose experience is unusual (and likely to receive an inbox full of PMs asking for the dealer's contact details )