Ode to the lowly M1 Carbine...

[imarangemaster]

I was in my gun safe today, changing desiccant crystals, emptying the accumulated moisture in the collection bowls. (Though I live in draught ridden central California, my swamp cooler is in the same room as the safe...so better safe than sorry!) Anyway, I decided to wipe everything in the safe down with a fresh coat of Ballistol to help keep them rust free.

I pulled out my 6 digit Inland post war rebuild, and as I was wiping it down, I realized it has been at least two years since I shot it! Whenever I have had a chance to shoot, I have only been shooting my AR and AK for the last couple years. As I fondled it (don't tell my wife), it was almost like re-discovering it. The little M1 Carbine is so incredibly light and handy compared to the AR or the AK.

I had been planning to go up and sight in my latest AK acquisition later this week, and I have decided to take the Inland, also. I am actually more excited about shooting it than the new AK! It has an ME of about "0" and it is an awesome shooter. I'll have to dig out some of my 15 grain WW296 loads with Berry plated bullets.

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[jjjxlr8]

I just had my Winchester M1 carbine out at the range last week. It has been extremely wet for weeks here in Ohio so I was able to safely play with M27 tracers at 300 yds. Great fun! I had no problem consistently hitting a target half the size of a man @ 300 yds., even standing and shooting off-hand. I had a 5" diameter AR500 plate at 200 yds., too, and was able to hit it a few times until the cable snapped. The M1 Carbines are great little rifles!

[imarangemaster]

TNOUTDOORS did a great series of videos on Youtube shooting the carbine a 12" and 18" AR500 plates out to 300 yards. The results were amazing! I guess I have been too busy drinking the AR and AK Kool Aid for awhile, to appreciate my little warrior.

The M1 Carbine's 1970 FPS for a 110 JSP gives 980 ft lbs ME,. Out at 100 yards, it still has 600 ft lbs -more than almost any pistol (including 357 Magnum) AT THE MUZZLE! The .44 mag 240s will break 700 ft lbs ME at the muzzle. AT 200 YARDS the M1 Carbine STILL has more energy than a 45 ACP, 9mm +P, or 40 S&W does AT THE MUZZLE.


Great little video, with a big surprise for the shooter. Start in at about minute 5:00. He regurgitates the "pistol caliber" BS in the video before he shoots, but eats crow after he shoots the clay block.



Also, A good thread I started last year for the new folks with the TNOUTDOORS videos:

SOme interesting carbine videos Accuracy and ballistic tests

[browningautorifle]

I never had any doubt about it's capability. I used to shoot steel at 200 yds offhand, and the report when it hit was as respectable as a 30-30...

[imarangemaster]

It is so easy for us to drink the "modern is better" koolaid. Look at the infatuation that Military/LE has with PDWs. Everybody loves the FN 5.7 and HK 4.6 as PDWs. They are very cool and sexy, but...the FN gives 350 to 400 ft lbs ME and the HK gives 370 ft lbs ME at the muzzle (about the same as a standard velocity 9mm pistol). The lowly old 30 Carbine gives 980 ft lbs ME, and 100 yards still gives almost twice the ME that either the 4.6 or 5.7 do at the muzzle! With an M1A1 side folder paratrooper stock, it is almost as compact as either, but more versatile. We played with an M2 in a side folder on the PD as an entry weapon in the 80s. Not as sexy, but very effective.

Sure, they say that 4.6mm and 5.7mm rounds defeat body armor (IIIA and below), but I put a 30 carbine round through both sides (front and back) of an old IIIA vest (with no one in the middle), and a 110 JSP through both sides of an issue PAGST Kevlar helmet.



I'm not saying that the FN or HK PDWs aren't any good, just that they are not the "end all" that some think they are. At just over 5 lbs, I'll happily keep my Inland 30 Carbine.. I killed a 200 lb. deer at 100 yards with a single heart/lung shot from my .30 carbine with a 110 JSP in 1988.

[imarangemaster]

Anyway, I didn't really intend for this thread to regurgitate my "M1 Carbine effectiveness" post of last year (though not bad info for new forum members who have joined since then, though). I just meant to share my "re-appretiation" of an old friend, and my confession that I had drunk too deeply of the AR/AK Koolaid!

[Seaspriter]

"re-appretiation" of an old friend, and my confession that I had drunk too deeply of the AR/AK Koolaid!

Actually you did us a great service imarangemaster. The videos on shooting accuracy at +200 yards were a real eyeopener. I had always considered the M-1 carbine a 100 yard and under weapon. There is too much emphasis on "horsepower" (the AR/AK mentality or BIG Ammo mentality) and not enough on what many consider the "right priorities:"
1) Reliability
2) Ease of Handling
3) Accuracy
4) Rate of Fire
5) Force of Impact

Too many have got the priorities reversed; most of these people have never been in combat and experienced the realities of the battlefield.

****************
Guess I couldn't resist sharing two of my favorites -- a real Inland M-1 and it's baby brother -- a 1980 Marlin 995 XLE M2 in .22 caliber with target sights.


Thanks

[browningautorifle]

Marlin 995 XLE M2 in .22 caliber with target sights.

Sweet little carbine there...

[imarangemaster]

My dad carried an M1 Carbine (Inland) on Iwo Jima in 1945. His brothers carried them in other campaigns of the Pacific war. All three love the carbine, and all three came home. My love for the carbine probably stems back to my dad's less than frequent stories about Iwo, and my uncles talk of Saipan and Tinian . These Carbines were very popular in the Pacific campaign, which is not surprising since few engagements were over 100 yards, maybe 200 at tops according to what my dad and Uncles told me.

While in Europe, there were more engagements in the open fields of France and Italy, so the Garand was king. I have talked to two guys, however, who used them (Carbines) in Europe with great effect. One was an NCO. He carried a Garand, except when clearing a village or town. Then he swapped his Garand to the unit Radio operator, and took the RTO's Carbine to clear buildings, and for house to house fighting. The other guy carried it all the time, and it never failed him. He said he limited himself to 200-300 yards and under. Old Audie Murphy did well with his M1 Carbine in WW2. Also, in Vietnam, the carbines were very popular, as the fighting was generally short range.

Korea is another matter. One problem was the long range of engagements and the human waves. Carbines were used at 300-500 yards, which is beyond their designed range. Also, untrained troops using full auto fire was a problem. The M2 climbs very easily, and most shots probably missed the target, especially at distant ranges. Ola Mize, the Medal of Honor winner, used and loved his Carbine in Korea.

I have fired M2s. They are easy to use, but work best in 2-3 round bursts. As proficient as I am with the Carbine, I could not keep a 30 round mag on target in a single full-auto burst, even at 50 to 75 yards .

[Seaspriter]

I salute your dad and uncles -- brave men in very difficult battles. (My father was at Iwo Jima and Okinawa)

NCO. He carried a Garand, except when clearing a village or town. Then he swapped his Garand to the unit Radio operator, and took the RTO's Carbine to clear buildings, and for house to house fighting. The other guy carried it all the time, and it never failed him. He said he limited himself to 200-300 yards and under.

I think you really hit the target on this one -- knowing the right weapon for the right circumstances is sooo important.

untrained troops using full auto fire was a problem. The M2 climbs very easily, and most shots probably missed the target, especially at distant ranges......
I have fired M2s. They are easy to use, but work best in 2-3 round bursts. As proficient as I am with the Carbine, I could not keep a 30 round mag on target in a single full-auto burst, even at 50 to 75 yards .

You make such a good point about inaccuracy and auto-climb. I wonder what the actual % hit-rate is of any rifle in automatic mode. Bullets that miss are as useless as nothing at all.

I recall being off the coast of Vietnam in 1972 doing gun-fire support with a 1911 .45 by my side. We threw a garbage bag over the side while we were just cruising at a few knots. The old grizzly Chief Gunners Mate challenged the officers to put the highest number of shots on the garbage bag the fastest with one magazine. I was a pretty good shot, but old Chief Russell beat me every time with his ancient 1903 Colt .32 semi-automatic (the predecessor to the 1911). Lesson: the low recoil of the 1903 enabled more shots on target faster, thus more effective. My 1911 was powerful, but had to be re-aimed after every shot.

Then came the next challenge -- a Browning Automatic Rifle. The challenge was to put 10 shots on target shot shooting from the shoulder. The biggest fellow on the ship was a Boatswain's mate named Clark -- an Iowa farm boy who stood about 6'3" and had arms like thighs. The BAR in automatic mode went into auto-climb. The first two shots were on target, but even the strongest mate on the ship could not hold the gun down. I tried it, and got the first shot on target, then auto-climb took command. Chief Russell then emptied a mag of his 1903 on target and just smiled.