+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 23

Thread: Surface Finish on Wartime No 4 and No 5 Rifles from ROF, ROM and BSA

Click here to increase the font size Click here to reduce the font size

Hybrid View

  1. #1
    Legacy Member 22SqnRAE's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2017
    Last On
    09-27-2023 @ 11:49 PM
    Location
    Brisbane - the middle of right side of Oz
    Posts
    304
    Local Date
    05-28-2024
    Local Time
    12:55 AM

    Surface Finish on Wartime No 4 and No 5 Rifles from ROF, ROM and BSA

    G'Day No 4 and 5 rifle gurus, I am seeking your detailed knowledge.

    I'm challenged with the task of refinishing a 1947 No 5 Mk 1 rifle to 'as issued' status and I am searching for definitive information on the actual surface finishes used.

    I understand that post factory, these rifles could have been repaired, repainted, refinished in a thousand ways, some in service, some at Unit level, some FTR some by dealers or collectors prior to onselling.

    Questions I'm looking to answer:

    1. What was the original steel surface finish of the No 4 and No 5 wartime/immediate post war rifles?
    2. Was the painted surface finish regularly 'touched up' at Unit workshop level, or was this Base/Factory applied?
    3. How were engraved markings preserved when recoating receiver?

    I have read several comments about rifles being 'Parked and Blacked', understanding this to refer to parkerising the base steel then coating with a (brittle?) enamel paint. Previous research has led me to believe that UKicon rifles were 'blackened' or oil blackened, a version of bluing. My understanding may be way off line?

    Any little pieces of information that you may be able to contribute to correcting my knowledge would be greatly appreciated.
    Information
    Warning: This is a relatively older thread
    This discussion is older than 360 days. Some information contained in it may no longer be current.
    Trying to save Service history, one rifle at a time...

  2. #2
    Advisory Panel
    Peter Laidler's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Last On
    Yesterday @ 07:16 AM
    Location
    Abingdon, Oxfordshire. The home of MG Cars
    Posts
    16,523
    Real Name
    Peter Laidler
    Local Date
    05-27-2024
    Local Time
    03:55 PM
    Your No5 will have been parkerised/phosphated and painted with black spirit based paint and baked
    We would touch the black paint up as and when needed at unit and at Field workshop level.

    We didn't go out of our way to preserve the numbers/markings. If it was at Base workshops it would be stripped and bead blasted and then refinished. So if you were unlucky, after a few times the markings would just disappear. So you just stamp the number onto the butt socket. Fazakerley rifles were notorious for shallow numbering.

  3. The Following 5 Members Say Thank You to Peter Laidler For This Useful Post:


  4. Avoid Ads - Become a Contributing Member - Click HERE
  5. #3
    Legacy Member 22SqnRAE's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2017
    Last On
    09-27-2023 @ 11:49 PM
    Location
    Brisbane - the middle of right side of Oz
    Posts
    304
    Local Date
    05-28-2024
    Local Time
    12:55 AM
    Thread Starter
    Thanks, Peter, that is extremely helpful and not too far off what I had expected. I appreciate your kind response.

    So, the No 4 and 5 were, in fact, parkerised? I have learnt something and have been quite misguided in thoughts until now.

    The task I have now is to determine the most effective way to remove the current coatings and refinish this rifle, taking care to preserve its markings. Preserving the engraved markings is proving to be a conundrum, but I'm sure some one else has done it. I've been toying with the idea of bead blasting the rifle, then applying molten wax to the engraved area to protect from a repaint. Once painted, remove wax from (hopefully) preserved engraved substrate.

    To everyone: Any comments or suggestions on this course?
    Trying to save Service history, one rifle at a time...

  6. Thank You to 22SqnRAE For This Useful Post:


  7. #4
    Advisory Panel browningautorifle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Last On
    Yesterday @ 07:24 PM
    Location
    Victoria BC
    Posts
    30,023
    Real Name
    Jim
    Local Date
    05-27-2024
    Local Time
    07:55 AM
    Glass bead will enhance the markings unlike sand... The paint thing, you're probably right. Just a cover of wax if you can stand doing it. A wax coat would come off with boiling water...poured from your tea kettle.
    Regards, Jim

  8. The Following 2 Members Say Thank You to browningautorifle For This Useful Post:


  9. #5
    Advisory Panel
    Peter Laidler's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Last On
    Yesterday @ 07:16 AM
    Location
    Abingdon, Oxfordshire. The home of MG Cars
    Posts
    16,523
    Real Name
    Peter Laidler
    Local Date
    05-27-2024
    Local Time
    03:55 PM
    On the other hand, don't bother with all that old wax and whatever. Just do what a zillion Armourers shops in the world do every day. Bead blast, phosphate and paint. If you want to keep the marks as-is, then you'll only be kidding yourself that it's original - when it's not.

  10. The Following 3 Members Say Thank You to Peter Laidler For This Useful Post:


  11. #6
    Legacy Member 22SqnRAE's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2017
    Last On
    09-27-2023 @ 11:49 PM
    Location
    Brisbane - the middle of right side of Oz
    Posts
    304
    Local Date
    05-28-2024
    Local Time
    12:55 AM
    Thread Starter
    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Laidlericon View Post
    On the other hand, don't bother with all that old wax and whatever. Just do what a zillion Armourers shops in the world do every day. Bead blast, phosphate and paint. If you want to keep the marks as-is, then you'll only be kidding yourself that it's original - when it's not.
    Peter, that's a good point and worth considering.

    Not sure I fully understand your point about '...not being original...'

    From your previous response, you pointed out in your service experience, and reinforced in the start of this response, that the rifles would be regularly refinished in service. So this leads me to consider that 'original' is probably only a point in time, such as factory finish. Authentic refinish however maybe a point to debate? But restoring back to a uniform, complete, accurate service condition seems valid. Have I missed your point, as I'm trying to understand where I'm not quite following your view. I'm not debating or disagreeing, just wanting to be sure I understand. Thanks.

    ---------- Post added at 06:49 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:43 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by No4Mk1(T) View Post
    My question is how bad is the finish now? if it's not rusted then generally a rifle with its original finish will be more desirable than one refined post serve. A gentle cleaning using suitable materials will preserve not only the rifles history but it's value as well.
    No4Mk1(T), a good question. This rifle is a bit of a pig. Its not particulalry rusted/damaged etc, it's badly treated and worn. It not a keeper to me with the barrel being probably, at best, a 5/10. As it is, it is not a valuable specimen.

    I'm using this one as a trial for several techniques to restore some other rifles in the near future, back to 'as issued' condition. Peter's suggestion of 'blast, Park and paint' is with merit, as it's what a Base Armourer would do, as he suggests. I'm thinking this would be a fairly low-risk trial for my much higher value rifles.
    Trying to save Service history, one rifle at a time...

  12. #7
    Moderator
    (Lee Enfield Forums)
    No4Mk1(T)'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Last On
    09-26-2021 @ 09:58 AM
    Location
    Vancouver Island
    Posts
    407
    Local Date
    05-27-2024
    Local Time
    07:55 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by 22SqnRAE View Post
    No4Mk1(T), a good question. This rifle is a bit of a pig. Its not particulalry rusted/damaged etc, it's badly treated and worn. It not a keeper to me with the barrel being probably, at best, a 5/10. As it is, it is not a valuable specimen.

    I'm using this one as a trial for several techniques to restore some other rifles in the near future, back to 'as issued' condition. Peter's suggestion of 'blast, Park and paint' is with merit, as it's what a Base Armourer would do, as he suggests. I'm thinking this would be a fairly low-risk trial for my much higher value rifles.
    Ok I'll offer an alternative option for your consideration.
    You could use this rifle to hone you preservation skills. In my years of collecting I've found the ability to preserve a firearms original finish well stripping away years of crud and neglect to be of greater value to me than being able to refinish something to as new condition.
    You could then resell your rifle to a collector who will appreciate the rifles originality and use the funds to purchase a sportterized rifle to restore. Ultimately there is a market for both preserved and restored rifles however an original preserved rifle will continue to appreciate in value where a restore rifle will rarely be worth more than what you paid for it. In many cases you will lose what you invested in the restoration. These comments are not intended to impugn anybody who decides to restore a rifle. Ultimately the choice is yours and you will draw no negative comments from me either way.

  13. The Following 2 Members Say Thank You to No4Mk1(T) For This Useful Post:


  14. #8
    Legacy Member 22SqnRAE's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2017
    Last On
    09-27-2023 @ 11:49 PM
    Location
    Brisbane - the middle of right side of Oz
    Posts
    304
    Local Date
    05-28-2024
    Local Time
    12:55 AM
    Thread Starter
    Quote Originally Posted by No4Mk1(T) View Post
    Ok I'll offer an alternative option for your consideration.
    You could use this rifle to hone you preservation skills. In my years of collecting I've found the ability to preserve a firearms original finish well stripping away years of crud and neglect to be of greater value to me than being able to refinish something to as new condition.
    You could then resell your rifle to a collector who will appreciate the rifles originality and use the funds to purchase a sportterized rifle to restore. Ultimately there is a market for both preserved and restored rifles however an original preserved rifle will continue to appreciate in value where a restore rifle will rarely be worth more than what you paid for it. In many cases you will lose what you invested in the restoration. These comments are not intended to impugn anybody who decides to restore a rifle. Ultimately the choice is yours and you will draw no negative comments from me either way.
    Thanks No4MkI(T) your advice is the path I have decided to take. The rifle is (formerly) a No 4 Mk 1/2 that has been modified to 'look' like a No 5 Mk 1. As such, from the collector's point of view, it is worthless. For the novice, it may have some residual value as a '...good looking gun...' (I shuddder using that term...) The value to me in this rifle is a test-bed where I can experiment with some restoration techniques, get them slightly wrong and not be worried about the lasting damage, if it goes that far. The benefit will always be in increasing skill and knowledge to apply on much better specimens worthy of genuine preservation.

    Appreciate your advice, thank you.
    Trying to save Service history, one rifle at a time...

  15. #9
    Moderator
    (Lee Enfield Forums)
    No4Mk1(T)'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Last On
    09-26-2021 @ 09:58 AM
    Location
    Vancouver Island
    Posts
    407
    Local Date
    05-27-2024
    Local Time
    07:55 AM
    My question is how bad is the finish now? if it's not rusted then generally a rifle with its original finish will be more desirable than one refined post serve. A gentle cleaning using suitable materials will preserve not only the rifles history but it's value as well.

  16. The Following 4 Members Say Thank You to No4Mk1(T) For This Useful Post:


  17. #10
    Advisory Panel
    Peter Laidler's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Last On
    Yesterday @ 07:16 AM
    Location
    Abingdon, Oxfordshire. The home of MG Cars
    Posts
    16,523
    Real Name
    Peter Laidler
    Local Date
    05-27-2024
    Local Time
    03:55 PM
    You've been in the Army RAE......... Like your plant and equipment, once the rifles have come from Ordnance, bright and shining new, after a year or so they're used and starting to get a bit tatty. So they go into workshops for a bit of TLC and so on. After that they go back to the unit and so on. That's what I mean! It can only be facory new ONCE. Thereafter, it's rebuilt in the RAEME Armourers shop or sent back to a Base Workshop where it is rebuilt to brand new spec again, probably several times in its life just like the SLR you were issued with. That was made in 1973 but you had it like-new in 1993.

    As a matter of interest, just because the barrel is a bit rats, nowadays, this doesn't count too much. What DOES count now is the bore gauge free run (.301" MUST run freely in your case) and more importantly, the functioning and accuracy test.

  18. The Following 2 Members Say Thank You to Peter Laidler For This Useful Post:


+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. wartime Russian wood finish
    By Schnitzelmahn in forum Soviet Bloc Rifles
    Replies: 49
    Last Post: 10-03-2016, 11:00 PM
  2. Wartime MAS 36
    By Anzac15 in forum Milsurps General Discussion Forum
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 11-13-2015, 10:34 PM
  3. Score on a wartime P38
    By Bearstopper in forum Other Military Service Pistols and Revolvers
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 11-03-2015, 08:21 AM
  4. Surface oxidation???????
    By Wulf in forum Edged Weapons Forum
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 09-27-2010, 06:09 PM
  5. Replies: 11
    Last Post: 08-11-2010, 05:44 PM

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts