No. 4 "Singer" sights revisited

[Lance]

Late X-mas present arrived via snail mail today. Took only one month to get to half way across the country as a first class package.

With the recent discussion on the Singer style rear sight this is the first 1942 dated milled sight I have come across. A bonus is that the battle sight is still intact. (Sorry for making you dig out your girls to look)

Anyways, obviously with the need for rifles in 1941 the complex singer sight was shelved for the "L" flip sight and later the stamped sights. Singer was the only one to produce these milled sights during WWII, most with 1941 dates or N67 marked leafs, with a bulk of them ear-marked to Enfield and H&H for the sniper project.

Many SM41's ended up modified for the sniper program and later, from observation, another run of sights in 1943 was done for the sniper program (SM43 as I have never seen one with the battle sight intact). Most likely in mid to late 1943 Singer started to use N67.

This 1942 dated example is "S.M.41" dated on the wheel and "SM42" on the leaf. Unfortunately there is not enough data to know if it is a early 1942 or a late 1942 (when they restarted the manufacture).

Pictured are SM41, SM42, SM43 and N67 milled sights (small hole battle sight aperture) and SM41, SM42 (low on back of 600 blade), SM42 (high on front of 600 blade) and N67 flip sight. Embarrassed I do not have a SM43 flip sight (another quest), sorry.

Information

Warning: This is a relatively older thread This discussion is older than 360 days. Some information contained in it may no longer be current.

[Roger Payne]

Nice montage of Singer made variants Lance, although I think they (Singer) weren't the sole producer of these sights during WW2. Having said that, if Singer production of Mk1 sights was intermittent at the height of the war perhaps that is why the batch of Mk1 rear sights provided to H&H in 1943 & not uncommonly seen on BSA 43 4T's were of Savage manufacture? If Singer were in between batches it would be feasible that the sights H&H needed would have to be sourced elsewhere.

[Alan de Enfield]

RoF Poole also manufactured the Mk1 sights (Marked P), as did POF (marked - I think - with a P in a circle), as did BSA, and of course Savage & Fazakerley

[Roger Payne]

I think the P in a circle may be the ROF Poole variants Alan, although I'm not certain of this. Again, not certain, but have always assumed that these Poole made examples were post WW2 mfr. Long Branch also made some Mk1 rear sights during WW2. I've only ever seena handful of POF made No4's, but from what I recall of them the rear sights were unmarked, or at least the sight leaves were. However, they were all very nicely made.

[Alan de Enfield]

I think the P in a circle may be the ROF Poole variants Alan, although I'm not certain of this. Again, not certain, but have always assumed that these Poole made examples were post WW2 mfr. Long Branch also made some Mk1 rear sights during WW2. I've only ever seena handful of POF made No4's, but from what I recall of them the rear sights were unmarked, or at least the sight leaves were. However, they were all very nicely made.

I have been hunting around to determine which marking is which for Poole and PoF, and found an old 2010 review of the PoF Rifles by "Claven"

https://www.milsurps.com/content.php...-(POF)-in-1961)

Most parts are proofed with either a circle with a "P" inside it, or with a capital letter "P" with the year of manufacture of the part underneath (e.g. P over 61).

I am therefore working on the idea that the P without a circle is the Poole production. I'd certainly be interested in any views or evidence either way.

Question : Is a "P" (no circle and no date) Poole ?

[Lance]

My bad guys. I should have worded it "only early UK maker" as BSA and Faz did not start until mid-late 1944 (best guess on No. 5 production). Received my second COVID vaccine yesterday and felt crappy last night with fatigue and a headache, my only excuse. Roger, I wonder if they requested rear sights from Savage, if they received spares along with rifles, or if they just robbed the rear sight off the early rifles?

[Roger Payne]

Hi Lance. Hope you're feeling better today! I first came across 43 BSA T's with Savage rear sights when we bought the batch of 140 rifles, back in about 1997. IIRC there was a couple like that amongst them.Over the years I heard of or saw another two or three, & in all cases, as far as I could assess, the rifles were unadulterated in recent years, which led me to suspect that they may have been replacement sights supplied to H&H for otherwise satisfactory rifles that had been sent for conversion with the wrong pattern rear sight fitted. I never had a shred of documentary proof to back this up, but I am sure that a few years ago MkVII posted a thread in whcih he referred to finding a document in Ministry of Supply records (or somewhere such like) that confirmed a quantity of Savage made sights were to be provided to H&H for precisely this purpose. Somebody more skilled may be able to find the link, or maybe even MkVII may be able to chip in himself..........

[Mk VII]

We had some discussion on this a few years back. https://www.milsurps.com/showthread....itish+archives

[Surpmil]

And from that interesting thread:

I came across this recently, while searching for something quite different.


On 25 Aug 1942 the War Office cabled the following to the British Army Staff in Washington DC:

Are Rifles No. 4 now being manufactured in USA and Canada being fitted with leaf back sights? If so possible requirement in UK for 7,000 in connection with manufacture of sniper's rifles.

The reply on 31 Aug 1942

First. Present USA and Cdn. rifles have Mark two (tip-up) backsight.

Second. Savage has approx. 6000 assembled Mark one leaf backsights.

Third. Might obtain these provided decision cabled immediately.

A minute dated 2nd Sept asks:

S.S.9 (through A.L.M.)

We urgently require 7,000 leaf backsights to complete fitment of No.4 Telescopic Rifles awaiting urgent issue to troops.
The cables at 1A and 1B [above] show 6,000 sight assembled to be available.
Will you therefore please arrange that these sights are delivered by the quickest available route to Weedon.
A draft cable is enclosed for despatch.

(sd.) R.H. Salmon
W.S.14

"quickest available route" would obviously be aircraft, and that would probably mean new-built bombers being ferried to the UK, as Warren has referred to previously in regard to shipment of Long Branch No.4(T)s. (the weight-fuel-range limitations would probably mean many small shipments)
I wonder if any ferry pilots/crew are still around who might know something about this process?

The requirement for 7,000 sights presumably correlates to the contracts being let for the No4(T), but H&H clearly didn't have capacity to use 7,000 sights any time soon. The inventory of sniping rifles in the UK taken in late 1943 suggests their production was about 50 rifles a week, until perhaps some time in mid to late 1944(?). When Peter visited their factory in north London in the late 1980s and spoke to the last staffer who was there during the war, he was shown the single milling machine which had been used to mill the pads after fitment, or the bodies before (I forget which), so about 50 rifles a week seems reasonable.

The MkI sights are far less complex than a lot of what was being made for the war effort, so the lack of supply, and the speed of production of No4(T)s generally, certainly suggests a rather low production priority being assigned, and the same would be true for Long Branch and Research Enterprises Ltd., considering what else they were making.

[Roger Payne]

Interesting points, & although it was stated that 7,000 were required, that 6,000 were available, & that this 6,000 were to be appropriated asap for the 4T conversion programme, I have no doubt that only a small number of these, assuming all 6,000 got to the UK, were ever used on 4T's. If all 6,000 of the sights had been used that would mean that around 25% of 4T's would have left H&H bearing a Savage rear sight. Clearly not the case................but some most definitely did.