New ruling of Illegal guns by RCMP

[RobSmith]

There is currently much speculation regarding why the T97 rifles were "deemed prohibited, and the matter has been discussed at lenght on another board.

What is so far, which comes directly from the first company to attempt to import a large shipment of these rifles (this company, as well as another one succesfully imported small sample batches prior to the aforementioned large shipment).

Upon landing in the country the RCMP grabbed a "sample" from the shipment and took it appart, at which point they noticed some "unusual" tool/file/cutting marks, which gave them an excuse to declare those "converted automatics".

Why the previously imported rifles were subsequently declared "prohibited" also is not confirmed at this time.

[tiriaq]

It would seem that the situation with respect to the two different batches differs.

With respect to the 30-odd Lever guns, the revocation notices are out, and some owners, at least, are filing for reference hearings. This will at least clarify the situation as far as this lot is concerned. If ease of conversion is the issue, this will be established in court.

The situation respecting the larger, more recent importation is unclear. If these were finished, selective fire guns that the Chinese altered to semi only, it would be pretty hard to argue that the guns are not converted autos.

There is the established precedent that a never-previously-assembled-into-a-firearm-full-auto-receiver can be reworked for semi only, and the resulting firearm will not be a converted auto.

[RobSmith]

Yes, but that precedent (I'm assuming that you're referring to the VZ-58 here) involves receivers that have been permanently altered in such a way that they can't accept f/a parts prior to assembly.

As for the T97's, considering the variable quality of Chinese manufacture, it is entirely possible that these are parts that either A) were taken from the assembly line and modified prior to installation or B) that the Chinese just didn't bother putting much effort in the finish of internal parts, leaving a bunch of tool marks that could be interpreted as a conversion.

In any case, the point is moot unless the receiver itself is incapable of accepting an F/A trigger groups without modification.

There is the established precedent that a never-previously-assembled-into-a-firearm-full-auto-receiver can be reworked for semi only, and the resulting firearm will not be a converted auto.

[tiriaq]

I have never seen a T97. It would be interesting to examine one, and determine how conversion could be achieved.
Once a reference hearing makes it to court, the specifics should become public.
It is possible that the conversion to auto is as simple as has been rumoured. If this is the case, it is hard to imagine that a court reference will be successful.
Anyone owning one of these firearms would be well advised to have the mechanism examined in detail by a knowledgable individual, before going to court.
Depending on how a mechanism is designed, conversion to auto can be extremely simple.
One design last year was condemned because all that was necessary to effect auto fire was to limit movement of the trigger. For the disconnect function to occur, the trigger had to move fully to the rear; insert an improvised block between the trigger and the guard, and the gun would reliably fire bursts. No disassembly, alteration, or substitution of parts was required.

[enfield303t]

Interesting on all the talk on firearms being full automatic. Many years ago I had a fully auto 9mm Schmeisser registered with a pretty lax carrying permit. I remember a good friend and collector ran the crime lab for the RCMP in Regina and told me as of then (the 60's) no person that had a legally registered fully automatic weapon had ever committed a crime with one in recorded history in Canada. The object of his comment was that people who had them knew they were fortunate and never abused the priviledge of ownership. Today I would venture it would be the same if they were as common as they were then. Prohibiting these weapons from ownership by law abiding Canadians is not solving any problem on the streets, like the gun registry it has been a black hole of money vanishing with no true accomplishments.

Possibly the RCMP in Saskatchewan issued me such a lax carrying permit because the "force" based in Moose Jaw relied on me to furnish them with adequate firearms for certain situations seeing as they were so poorly equipped.

[tiriaq]

You are correct - there was never a crime of violence committed with a legally owned machinegun by its legal owner.
I believe that in the US there was one such crime - and the individual was also a LEO.
Legal owners of machineguns were/are just about the most law-abiding citizens around.
None of this is relevant, of course.

[enfield303t]

My point is why is the RCMP wanting to ban these guns? It can't be for safety as should they be deemed to be restricted or prohibited and properly registered they by all evidence are not going to pose any problem for Canadians.
Why not issue the present owners of these firearms with the proper licence and that would solve the problem. If they do not qualify for a licence upgrade to a prohib. then allow them to dispose of these to a person that can legally own them.
My understanding is the Norinco was legally imported into Canada and the RCMP have now told a judge it was "easy" to convert it to full automatic. My understanding also is the RCMP did not disclose how they converted this rifle to full auto. If 1 or 2% of firearms owners are able to do this conversion being skilled machinists does this constitute it being "easy"? What if 99.9% of owners no matter how skilled are unable to do it, does this still make it easy. By not disclosing how they did it the RCMP have set of my alarm bells and they will continue to ring loud and clear. I think it is only proper to FULLY disclose how this gun was made full auto. Did they get a new full auto trigger group from Norinco and after alot of milling drop it in? There are books available to every Canadian that can read describing how to make fully auto many common rifles, are we about to see all of them classified prohibited? I agree Legal full auto owners are some of the best citizens in Canada, it is unfortunate their legally owned firearms are being targeted for no Safety reason what so ever. I await full disclosure by the RCMP before "turning off" my alarm bells.

[Peter Laidler]

Some of the bullpup single shot, straight pull versions of the UK Cadet Force SA80 rifles that are in private hands in the UK started out their life in Canada so far as I am aware. In fact I've got one! They were returned shortly prior to being outlawed in Canada in the early 90's. Is this a fact or weren't they in fact outlawed after all under a blanket bull-pup ban?

Just interested, that's all as I still have copies of the Canadian re-export papers for mine

[tiriaq]

There is no blanket bullpup ban, per se. But when the law changed, most bullpups then available were prohibited by name. These were generally "grandfathered", and could be retained, bought and sold by indivivuals who were grandfathered owners. The individuals drafting the legislation went through a popular firearms annual, and circled the scary looking guns. Firearms introduced more recently may or may not be restricted or prohibited.
Recent changes have made it impossible to obtain permission to take grandfathered longarms to ranges.
I recall seeing a SA80 at a service eifle shoot at CFB Borden.
There were a few imported prior to the change in the law.
The current situation is the result of the RCMP allowing the importation and sale of T97 rifles and then changing its mind.

[enfield303t]

Again my main point is there is no logical reason to ban these type of weapons after you have allowed them to be legally imported. The RCMP have created a myth along with others that f/a weapons are dangerous in the hands of legitimate shooters/collectors. Again no evidence shows this and the facts show just the opposite when responsible citizens legally own these firearms. To say something such as it was "easy" to convert without proof is not the way things should be done in our country. We are now going to see citizens have their firearms confistcated and destroyed as the RCMP use our money to fight "us". The only hope these owners have is a Judge that will ask for full disclosure from the RCMP and then make a informed decision. The RCMP's motto "Maintines le droit" ... whose "droit"?