No.8 rifle artillery use?

[Steve H. in N.Y.]

I've read that some .22cal. No.8 rifles were stripped of their woodwork, redesignated L2A1 and attached to artillery pieces for training. I'm wondering exactly how this worked. Was the thing direct fired at paper or was there an umbrella-toting observer watching for bullet impacts around a distant target?

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[Alan de Enfield]

I've read that some .22cal. No.8 rifles were stripped of their woodwork, redesignated L2A1 and attached to artillery pieces for training. I'm wondering exactly how this worked. Was the thing direct fired at paper or was there an umbrella-toting observer watching for bullet impacts around a distant target?

I'm confused - the L2A1 was the Sterling Patchett submachine gun

"The famous Sterling submachine gun was born in around 1942 as "Patchett machine carbine" - a prototype submachine gun, developed by George W. Patchett and originally produced by Sterling Engineering Co in England. Several prototypes were built before the end of the war, and the Sterling-Patchett submachine gun participated in extensive trials, held in UK between 1945 and 1953, when it was finally announced as a winner of trials, and adopted as "9mm Sterling submachine gun L2A1" (factory designation was "Patchett Mk.1"). Sterling submachine guns were produced for British armed forces by Sterling company and Royal Ordnance Arsenal in Fazakerly, England; Long Branch Arsenal in Canada made a slightly modified Sterling under license for Canadian army as C1. In a slightly modified form, known in British service as L2A3 submachine gun or as "Sterling submachine gun, Mark 4" or Sterling Mk.4 in short, it served with British army until early 1990s" .....,

[Peter Laidler]

Ah, yes............ first things first. The mysterious 'L' designator. The L designates what type of kit the NAME is. So if it's a GUN, (or rifle....) Machine L7A2, then the L7 relates to a GUN. But if it is a KIT, sub calibre, L12, then the L12 relates to sub calibre kits. So you can see that there is a degree of crossover. Take the L8 for example. There was a variant of the GPMG called an L8 AND the 7.62mm No4. There was also an L2.....as in Sterling SMG, L2 as in SLR machine gun AND an L2 as in sub calibre kit (although I seem to recall that the L2 Steve refers to was in fact an L- something else but I might be wrong.........)

But the stripped No8 rifles were fitted into a circular cage, the dimensions of a 120mm tank or artillery round. So, parked at th back of the 30metre range, the Centurion or Chieftain crew would go through all of the tank battle drills, the loading and sight setting and instead of a xxxxing huge band and the range disintegrating before theor very eyes, there would be a smal crack and the .22" bullet would hit a small tank 30 metres away. There were several sizes of rubber tank that would simulate their sizes at different ranges.

The targets were made from shredded and compressed tyres (so I'm told.....) but they were reasonably accurate and lasted for many hits

We also used self loading Australian SPORTCO rifles too

Next question

[nzl1a1collector]

The L1A1 rifle was stripped, fitted with the L12A1 .22 conversion kit and then placed into a bracket on the CVT Scorpion Tank for the same purpose. Here's the stripped L1A1 and one of the target rubber tanks.

[Peter Laidler]

That's amazing NZ. I've never seen or heard of that configuration. Still, if you've got to replicate a reasonably rapid firing 30mm RARDEN cannon, then a self loader is the way to go.

I had a few of the rubber tanks many years ago but seem to remember that they all delaminated eventually due to being dirt cheap compressed rubber granules and open to the light. The example shown looks like a churchill to me!

[nzl1a1collector]

Peter, you can read all about the conversion in EMER:-
SA & MG D119, Misc Instr No. 19, Iss 1, Mar 73
RIFLE 7.62 MM L1A1, Technical Handbook - Miscellaneous Instruction -
Conversion of rifle for use on CIM's and gunnery training turrets.

[Enfieldlock]

No8s were first used as a simulator on the BAT family of 120mm recoiless artillery pieces.

One of a batch of No8 actions we acquired was one of these and attracted a handsome premium.

[Peter Laidler]

I wonder how that worked because the BAT was electrically fired........... Are you sure it wasn't from a 120mm tank simulator

[Enfieldlock]

I wonder how that worked because the BAT was electrically fired........... Are you sure it wasn't from a 120mm tank simulator

I am so old that I was responsible the BAT systems when I first started in MoD. The L2 simulator was part of the CES.