I know this has probably been asked a million times about 03A3's but.....

[Rick the Librarian]

Good point, Rick, but we're both really just guessing without more info. If his grandfather wasn't inducted until, say, 1943, it's all moot anyway. I had in mind a single digit infantry division, but couldn't locate the file. Turns out I was thinking of the 4th DIV which was also an RA unit and also embarked rather late. This report is from December '42. Since the 4th DIV still had '03s a year after US entry, it's not implausible that a similar early mobilization/late departure unit was in the same boat. All I need to do is win the lottery and I could add this question to my National Archives wish list.

View image: springfield barrels 4th infdiv 12 28 42 001

The OP may have to be content in the knowledge that his grandfather would have received familiarization training with all small arms, so he at least handled everything. Depending on when the promotion to sergeant happened, the 03A3 would still seem to be the least likely candidate. But that too is based on playing the odds in the absence of facts about the division.

Interesting memo, but it doesn't say whether the Springfields were "here and there" or equpped whole units. Keep in mind that the infantry units (which, I believe, made up only about 50-60% of an infantry division. As I'm sure you know, there were a large number of support units - engineers, artillery, MP, etc. that could have retained M1903s. I have some charts of TO&E but, unfortunately, do not differentiate between M1903s and M1s. As an "educated guess", I would estimate that several hundred M1903s remained in each division, at least until the M1 carbine became more common.

[ABPOS]

I'm trying to follow up the leads you guys have given me. THANK YOU!!!!! I'm excited, or maybe hopeful, about the IDPF. Although, I don't know if it will tell me much. I did find some old papers and he was in "E" Company. I doubt that helps a me know what he did. But wouldn't and "E" company be a typical combat company? How many men were in a company? How did it break down? As far as I can tell, he was a normal ole Sergeant. He was turned down for a 2nd LT. commission as a Cpl. in 1942. November.

[Harlan (Deceased)]

Hi ABPOS. Here's a photo I had on my hard drive that I thought was interesting. This black soldier on the left is carrying an 03A3 and an M1 carbine.

[m1903rifle]

That's a 1903, not A3......and it would appear to be an earlier one

[ABPOS]

Great pic. I wonder where that is. But yeah, it's got the open, flip sight in front of the chamber. Regular ole 03.

I am getting ready to send off my request for IDPF. But I also found the NARA website and have printed out a thing to send off for the OMPF. I think they are both in different spots, but I don't want to send both and double the effort. As I'm sure they are busy. But the OMPF and the NARA are all about the fire of 73 and all that. But someone mentioned the IDPF's might not have been involved in that. So, I might send both. Unless one of you tells me it's not wise. I could send in the IDPF request that I'm requesting the OMPF from the NARA. But the place you send the IDPF is not the NARA but the TAPC-PAO.

I'm guessing if my Grandfather was in a normal ole rifle squad, which I guess a Sgt headed up, he probably had an M1 Garand. Or carbine. More likely a Garand??? And I've heard it said that most buck sergeants weren't issued pistols at all. You think that's true? But, E company might have had a mortar squad and machine gunners, I'm assuming they would have. And that might change what they would've carried. I guess a Thompson is possible too. But did they reserve those for someone higher up? I suppose it just depended on the unit. If someone has some ideas, I'm all ears.

[vintage hunter]

Can't tell if it's an '03 or 03a3 but the pic was supposedly taken on Eniwetok in Feb 1944.

[Roadkingtrax]

12-164 Garand Picture of the Day 36th inf Div

Italy



---------- Post added at 07:32 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:25 PM ----------

[firstflabn]

Rick, my theory has always been that the generic, "Rifle, .30 cal." T/O&E designation might have been intended to bridge the transition to the Garand. Having seen revisions to correct very minor errors in the T/O&Es makes it hard for me to accept it was a matter of loose editorial control and not intentional.

On the Springfield question, the General Peterson mentioned in the quote is the Inspector General of the Army (not just an offficer in that office) commenting on reports of inspections of units preparing for overseas movement. Hard to believe he would spend his time worrying about a few rifles for support troops. Also hard to believe transitions were done piecemeal except under the most extreme circumstances. Non-divisional units were embarking at the same time, so lots of places to adjust priorities and keep weapons issue uniform within major formations. I would like to see reports of what must have been frequent discussions about these types of priorities. The Green Books do a good job of describing the general chaos, but only provide a glimpse here and there (like this one) into the details.

AB, the rifle company info helps narrow it down a little bit. Still have 7 different SSNs (job descriptions) for the 36 sergeants. With heavy losses, it is also impossible to say if your grandfather might have been temporarily serving at a higher grade in a different job. Maybe the IDPF will contain more info. By the book it was three carbines and 33 Garands for the 36 sergeants. Taking a dose of my own prescription, photos raise the question (but don't answer it) of rifle squad use of submachine guns. Photos suggest there were many more used than shown on the T/O&E (which lists none in rifle squads).

To get a general idea of what was happening on the day your grandfather was killed, you might email NARA at their 'Ask a Question' link and ask for a copy of the battalion S-3 daily log (or is it G-3 for battalions?) for that day. Shouldn't be more than a page or two. Should give unit location, movements, and a very brief description of other activities. Might give casualties for the day. NARA alternates between extremely helpful on some days and not being able to find their behind with both hands on others. A brief, targeted request increases your odds. Really work on the editing and be patient - three months would not be a shock. ETO, First US Army, V Corps, 2nd Infantry Division, what was the regiment?, 2nd Battalion. Good luck.

[ABPOS]

Rick, my theory has always been that the generic, "Rifle, .30 cal." T/O&E designation might have been intended to bridge the transition to the Garand. Having seen revisions to correct very minor errors in the T/O&Es makes it hard for me to accept it was a matter of loose editorial control and not intentional.

On the Springfield question, the General Peterson mentioned in the quote is the Inspector General of the Army (not just an offficer in that office) commenting on reports of inspections of units preparing for overseas movement. Hard to believe he would spend his time worrying about a few rifles for support troops. Also hard to believe transitions were done piecemeal except under the most extreme circumstances. Non-divisional units were embarking at the same time, so lots of places to adjust priorities and keep weapons issue uniform within major formations. I would like to see reports of what must have been frequent discussions about these types of priorities. The Green Books do a good job of describing the general chaos, but only provide a glimpse here and there (like this one) into the details.

AB, the rifle company info helps narrow it down a little bit. Still have 7 different SSNs (job descriptions) for the 36 sergeants. With heavy losses, it is also impossible to say if your grandfather might have been temporarily serving at a higher grade in a different job. Maybe the IDPF will contain more info. By the book it was three carbines and 33 Garands for the 36 sergeants. Taking a dose of my own prescription, photos raise the question (but don't answer it) of rifle squad use of submachine guns. Photos suggest there were many more used than shown on the T/O&E (which lists none in rifle squads).

To get a general idea of what was happening on the day your grandfather was killed, you might email NARA at their 'Ask a Question' link and ask for a copy of the battalion S-3 daily log (or is it G-3 for battalions?) for that day. Shouldn't be more than a page or two. Should give unit location, movements, and a very brief description of other activities. Might give casualties for the day. NARA alternates between extremely helpful on some days and not being able to find their behind with both hands on others. A brief, targeted request increases your odds. Really work on the editing and be patient - three months would not be a shock. ETO, First US Army, V Corps, 2nd Infantry Division, what was the regiment?, 2nd Battalion. Good luck.

Wow, great info. How do you now it was Second Battalion? Is it because of "E" company? I've never understood what a battalion is. But I do know he was E company. And fwiw, it was 23rd IR. But I get your point. I did print off the request for OMPF and I'm going to have my Dad sign it. We have the same name, so I'm just having it sent to me. Plus, according the the NARA, anything over 62 years old is public record now. But I think it mentioned you still might be better off to have next of kin sign for it. So, my Dad is next of kin.

That is a great tip about the daily log thing. And the "ask a question". I had not seen that anywhere on their website. I will do that. I did rejoin this group on yahoo.com for the 2nd ID and I've gotten a little bit more info from a couple of guys on there. I guess my grandpa was killed on the 2nd day of the start of operation Cobra. I think I knew that at one time, but had forgotten. There is one guy who's uncle was wounded on the same day, and another with a Grandpa, wounded same day. It's kind of exciting to hear about, for some reason.

Yeah, pictures seem to disagree with all rifles and 3 carbines, but when you're looking at pictures, you never know if one of the guys was from some support group mixed in with a rifle company. You know, like maybe a Recon guy was attached with a rifle squad and was just near those guys when the picture was taken. Or something like that. Artillery guys mixed in. I mean, I doubt they all stayed in a huddle with their squads and never went anywhere else. That would be impossible. At least, that's my assumption.

But the fact of the matter is, the pics don't always add up to what is "supposed" to be. I just bought an issue of WWII History mag, and there is an article about "The Bedford Boys" and the 1st ID on D-Day. There is clearly a picture of a LC with a guy with a regular 03 on board. With no grenade attachment. But I can't remember, did the 03's need a special grenade launcher attachment? I know the Garands did. And the Carbines also. But also in the LC, most guys had carbines. So, it might have been some kind of support group. In fact, almost everyone in there had a carbine. But I don't think it was a bunch of LT's all together. Anyways......

Vintage Hunter, too hard to tell from that view. Could've been either. But my guess is if it was Marines, it was an 03. But I could be wrong.

Roadkingtrx, GREAT PICTURES!!! The first two don't really show us "where" they were. Could've been training. There are a whole lot of 03's in that first pic. And the lovely A4...... What the heck are those things in the second pic? The almost look like film reels, but when I look close I think it's something else. And the 3rd pic is hard to look at. Ugh. That's just a regular 03. I see more of them so far, in combat pictures.

[emmagee1917]

They are M1 / M1A1 light anti tank mines.
Chris