Irish Contract No4 mk2

[Flying10uk]

In the excellent book The British Enfield Rifles vol2 by Charles R. Stratton it seems to me reading the book to suggest that none of the 50,000 Irish contract No4 mk2 rifles were ever actually delivered to the Irish Defence Force. I have no idea where the information came from but it's the only time that I have seen it suggested that none of the rifles were delivered. I had thought that it was only the last few thousand that were not delivered from the last tranche. There seem to be a great deal of mistery and speculation about this.

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[Frederick303]

search this forum, there was along thread about it in the last month or so.

[Beerhunter]

Not my field but on the stuff that is, I am afraid that Stratton is far from error free.

[Frederick303]

Skip Stratton was working back in the early 1990s, at the very dawn of the internet age, at least as regards collecting oriented pages. He attempted to, (with what data he had) assemble a set of volumes to allow a fellow to figure out what parts were on his gun and where it fit in to the overall history. Of course with the ensuing 20 years of postings and research, his books are lacking in some ways, but I expect most Enfield collectors have a copy of each of his books on their shelves, just like we have Major Reynolds and Ian Skennerton's tomes.

It will be ever thus, the greatest volume of data published opens new questions and in 20 years the gaps are obvious.

[Peter Laidler]

I say it many time and I'll say it again. Writing books is a road to nowhere because the very first person to read your book IMMEDIATELY knows more than you do. He's reading it because he is interested of course. As such, he knows ALL that you have written PLUS the tiny bit he knew before............

Just after I'd written the Sten gun book, I had a call from someone to tell me that 'they' had also produced chrome plated versions too................ A chrome plated versions......... Not my idea of a wartime SMG camouflage option I thought............. But he told me it MUST be true because he saw one in the RAOC Depot in the 50's on a wood plinth, in a display cabinet awarded as a shooting prize!

[Frederick303]

While I hate to disagree with Capt. Laidler, I would respectfully suggest that the folks that have put down information in a book are often times limited by the need to cover a lot of material in a reasonable space. I think we would all have loved to have Major Reynolds posting Like Capt. Laidler does, what would he have posted with his background. What one can put into a write up is limited by the requirement to have a readable narrative. If you get too detailed, you will lose folks for example few folks are all that interested in the 29 possible variations of the front band assembly for the No4 rifle, including the original finish by year and factory, as well as various FTR and field/depot finishes.

Actually I can see that now, a full book called "the No4 Front Band Assembly, 1925 to 1989" with separate chapters on all of the UK, North American makers and rare versions such as Khyber pass and Indian refurbished ones. Milled stamped, fabricated with welds, all covered in detail. With chapters on how to tell the various finish originality by spectrographic light tests. Copies of each contract let out to UK manufacturers, as well as the variations allowed in the steel. A special chapter on the requirements for the band screw, its variations and a heat treating specs. Pictures of each of the factories or where they were located. Of course you would also need estimates on the manufacturer quantity of each and every band. I am sure a good basic book could be put together in ~300 pages and I am sure at least 11 copies could be sold in the US market alone. Of course 6 month later someone will come up with a duralumin band that sparks a new debate and the book will by then be seen as "dated" on the basis of new information.

[Flying10uk]

Thanks Federick303, just had a look at the post, interesting stuff. Stratton also mentions that the contract was cancelled for political reasons, if it was. A more likely explination is that Ireland twigged tha t the rifles would soon be out of date

[Beerhunter]

My problem with Stratton is not lack of information but actual errors. As an example, regulars here will know I take a great interest in (not to say am anal about) the marks on firearms. I don't know why, I just like them and what they can tell one about a firearm. I am unimpressed by Stratton on British marks.

[Frederick303]

Beerhunter

Last night I picked up my copy of Stratton's No4 book and I was amazed after reading through the many mistakes were in there. So I do see your point. At the same time because of his untimely death one has no idea how he would have revised to books had he more time on this globe.

I do recall his website back around 1996 and he had one of the early web boards, along with the gun and knife forum, that folks shared data and answered questions on Enfields. Back then I think all I had was Skennerton's first 198? Enfield book and the 1983 one he did on UK sniper rifles I, a lowly grad student corresponded with "Skip" back then and he was very much a gentlemen and a scholar. I have no doubt had he lived longer that he would have updated and revised his books to reflect the accurate knowledge.

When he was first writing back in the early 1990s it was a different world. The only Enfield related publication back then (at least in the US) was Greg Young's Enfield newsletter and he had a hard time getting enough content to keep it going. Also back then the number of arms we had access to was much restricted, as imports had closed in 1968, very few to no No4 Mk II were in the country, now was there much if any Ishapores or Lithgow's (other than a few that had gone through FTR in UK after WWII) prior to the late 1980s. Skennertons book was the "Bible" so to speak, though some advanced collectors had managed to get a copy of the Major Reynolds book, a rare tome unknown to those of us out in the rude provinces. For accuracy and bedding there was nothing, other than a few of the articles published in The American rifleman by Major Reynolds in the 1960s to early 1970s.

Professor Stratton stepped in and started the process of tabulating all of the parts variations and what they meant. Lots of it was actually in Skennerton, but a lot of the detail was not and by publishing when he did he helped the collecting fraternity a great deal.

Flying10UK,

Capt. Laidler disagrees and there are old posts on this site that discuss this, but there are letters in existence form the Irish Ministry of Defense that say they took a full 50,000 rifles.

[ssj]

My problem with Stratton is not lack of information but actual errors. As an example, regulars here will know I take a great interest in (not to say am anal about) the marks on firearms. I don't know why, I just like them and what they can tell one about a firearm. I am unimpressed by Stratton on British marks.

However at the time some probably were not errors it is only as information has come to light that we can see the mistakes. An interesting one is that ppl assumed the No4 mk2 started at PF100000, yet we have pictures now of a no4 mk2 stamped/etched PF97xxx dated 4/49. So about the only thing we can say is the swap over was about 4/49 and the number range seems to be continuous/consecutive.