Bayonet Bonanza

[Peter Laidler]

On that basis alone (para 2, thread 50) following on from threads 40 and 50 and others, I'd say that you have effectively answered your own question (thread 37)!

[Flying10uk]

I think that your suggestion of a tooling location hole is the best suggestion for the presence of this small hole that has been put forward so far, Peter. The problem with punching out a part like this with the large, in relation to outer blank, muzzle ring hole and the blade slot is that the finished part which drops out of the tool tends to be dished shaped/distorted. This dishing can be difficult to remove and thus obtain a flat part again. The cross guards which I have seen all appear to be very flat with no sign of dishing.

A way round this problem, in the 1940s, would have been to punch out just the outer profile of the cross guard and then to drill/bore the muzzle ring hole plus machine the blade slot. To do this it would not be necessary to have any holes actually in the cross guard in order to locate on a machining jig because it is perfectly normal/acceptable to locate on the outside of the blank using pins. Today a part like the cross guard would most likely be cut out on a C.N.C. laser cutting machine and would produce a nice flat part.

If only the outer profile was punched out and not the complete part then the small hole must have been included during production for something other than tooling location.

[Peter Laidler]

We KNOW that they're punched out because we can see the shear marks on the sides, inside the blade hole and around the interior of the large diameter hole! If they come off the press slightly bent or curved, then you just knock 'em straight before you clean them up a tad and use them ..............

[Sentryduty]

A way round this problem, in the 1940s, would have been to punch out just the outer profile of the cross guard and then to drill/bore the muzzle ring hole plus machine the blade slot. To do this it would not be necessary to have any holes actually in the cross guard in order to locate on a machining jig because it is perfectly normal/acceptable to locate on the outside of the blank using pins. Today a part like the cross guard would most likely be cut out on a C.N.C. laser cutting machine and would produce a nice flat part.

We KNOW that they're punched out because we can see the shear marks on the sides, inside the blade hole and around the interior of the large diameter hole!

In the eye of mass production this is the only way to do it, one strike of an automated machine, like a cookie cutter. While making a nice flat piece by punching, then drilling, and machining just adds two extra and expensive steps to a piece that guys like me are just going to literally bash against things. A little bend, a little wobble is of no matter to us troops in the field, does it poke holes in bad guys, stay on the end of the rifle, and not snap when windlassing barbed wire is pretty much all we care about.

Best to build them fast and cheap, because we are going to break them regardless how nice they are finished.

[Flying10uk]

I don't have an un-used cross guard to examine, Peter, because all of mine are attached to bayonets and so there is no way for me knowing if the blade hole is punched or not. What I do know is that a part such as this will come out of a press tool dished and it will not be easy to get it flat again. This is because the part will tend to spring back to it's dished shape a certain amount. My No5 and No7 bayonets, when examined appeared to have had the large muzzle ring holes drilled/bored. They could, of course, have been punched then drilled/bored out to the final size but both cross guards appear very flat which does make me question whether any of the holes have been punched.

I will examine my No5 & No7 bayonets again.

[porterkids]

I can't speak for the British crossguards, but the parts for the USM9 bayonet are all stamped. And they are flat.

[browningautorifle]

They're all stamped. Drilling a large muzzle ring would cause too much heat in the subject and wear in the drills.

This whole line of argument seems to be a case of someone that loves to argue.

[Flying10uk]

I will do a close up photograph of the hole for the muzzle ring when I have had a look at it again. Jim I DO actually know what a punched hole and a drilled hole look like. I have been employed as a press tool maker my entire working life, a period of well over 30 years. Others are entitled to an opinion which may differ to your own and Peter's.

[browningautorifle]

Others are entitled to an opinion which may differ to your own and Peter's.

It's not really an opinion. Anyway, I hate people that argue for the sake of it. You can count on less activity from me in your posts. Have fun with it.

[Aragorn243]

OK, a new line of inquiry since this drilled vs stamped issue came up.

Obviously a lot of crossguards were not stamped, how were they made? Were they cast? Cutting and drilling just seems too much for these things. But I can't say I've ever seen a mold line on any of them. Polished out I imagine. Probably almost every bayonet made prior to WWII has thick heavy crossguards, some with fancy mounting rings like the Martini Henry, others just very plain but too thick to be pressed, I would think anyway.