Another Lee Enfield Sniper

[Roger Payne]

Thanks Giancarlo. The thing that strikes me from the few Italian made brackets that you have shown us, is that they are all the same in style, & now seen, can be recognized. The central 'strut' is slightly tapered in shape, like a Rose Brothers bracket. In other words it is slightly thinner at the front end than the back, but the surface is finished to a better standard & is flatter than a RB bracket. Additionally, it is now clear that Italy had its own numbering system for the cradle caps, which we now all understand. At least, this is what I will pick up from this. It has turned into a worthwhile thread - I've learnt something anyway. Previously I knew Italy used 4T's & I had even seen one Italian refurbished scope, but it did not have its bracket, & I did not even know that Italy had produced its own brackets.

[Surpmil]

It isn't real impossible to distinguish an original (Italian) from a fake.

Here an original (non mine). Note the Smle magazine.

Sorry my friend, IMHO that is not an original in any respect except that it is an "original" Lee Enfield Rifle and an "original" Italian made(?) scope. The difference in finish between the pads and rifle shows the pads were put on very recently and have certainly not been on there since the early 1950s when the Italians were purportedly making up their own No32 MkII scopes and No4(T)s.

Why they would have is a mystery to me, since the Mk3 was so much better and simpler to make... To say nothing of the numerous optically superior scopes available long before then.

There was a previous photo of a rifle overhauled - or was it made - in the UK in 1955. Are we really to believe that this was then shipped out to Italy in time to join their purported No4(T) conversion program, but never got a proper uniform finish applied in the process?

Those wonderfully skilled artisans who have been producing superb art "fakes" in Italy for centuries would laugh at such an amateurish attempt. They who can age a marble bust well enough to fool experts, what would they say about mismatching finishes and clean screw slots?

Really, we have a right to expect better from a country of so many talents!

[Giove]

Surpmil, thanks for your post.

I haven't seen that rifle from life, but only in pictures. To be sure you should see the markings on the barrel. The fact that the bracket and the rifle have different S.N. and that the screws head are "slaughtered", were the reason that made me desist from going to see it. Surely 1 or 2 screws of the front pad have been replaced.

Soon I shall insert the pics of one of my surely original "Italian sniper".

Do you confirm that the scopes were Mk II?

Italy come out of the II World War as a defeated nation and, therefore, was not allowed to, immediately, equip itself with modern armaments. The Lee-Enfield sniper was later replaced by the Garand sniper, also in 7,62x51 caliber (?!).

Regarding the firs rifle in this thread (the 1955), we are all aware that is a fake.

[Giove]

This is surely original (unfortunately not mine); I saw it from life.

[Surpmil]

The finish is much more convincing. I assume the absence of the "T" indicates this was an Italian conversion? Or do I see one applied there behind the "Mk.I."
What are the numbers behind the rear pad about?
I am surprised that the Italians would perpetuate the sliding brass eye shade, but such things are often done "just because".
Whoever assembled the scope to the bracket didn't pay much attention to the gaps between the cradles and caps; I think an Italian armourer would have done better.
The knurling of the ocular lens retaining ring appears identical to the R.E.L. pattern. Did the Italians perhaps use optics from R.E.L. No.42 scopes for these No.32s? It would have made sense economically.
With the change from WWII tanks soon after the war, there must have been many such scopes available as surplus even then.
If the ocular lens rear face is somewhat convex that would support the No.42 source idea as the R.E.L. No42s had that feature, as well as very good optical quality.

[Gil Boyd]

giove,
Thanks for all the info on the Italian side of things, but I can't seem to find any reference to 4T's being used there or even supplied to them, as they always preferred the Carcano for sniping and not the Enfield range. You will understand I am only relating to WW1 and WW2 and what I can get via our museum and the Imperial War Museum.

The images there are not of a 4T but what looks like a build up copy, any other photos closer in on the action?
Have you seen something in paperform that links H&H with Italy which could help us Enfield buffs understand the methodology?

[Promo]

They had tons of Enfields post WWII. See yourself here: Euroarms - Enfield Rifles FROM ITALIAN NAVY . Already from the wooden boxes you can see all of them came from Canada via the NATO.

He never claimed them as WWII weapons, even in WWII the Italians basically had no sniper rifle (what would refer to a scoped rifle in this context).

[Gil Boyd]

Promo,
Agree many countries had oodles of Lee Enfields pur se, I was asking more about any H&H connection to proper Sniper rifles going to Italy from the UK, and whether any litrature was present to confirm that?
One has to assume that if a country wanted to buy a Sniper rifle already passed all its checks to save time and money they would order them. Have I got it wrong? Did Italy do these checks themselves and make a good rifle a sniper rifle?

[Roger Payne]

We supplied thousands of surplus weapons & other equipment to friendly countries immediately after the war, as I'm sure most people are aware. This was long after H&H's involvement in setting up the 4T rifles - they'd been accepted, seen service with British & Dominion forces, & were then passed on to the (as they were then) 'needy' friendly countries (& of course in amongst the bulk of H&H contract rifles there would be a few Long Branch & Trials rifles as well, no doubt). So, no, Italy didn't contract with H&H to make them more 4T's, but they were supplied with 4T's of ours that had been set up originally by H&H. And it now seems that they set some up themselves as well. I suppose we shouldn't be surprised. The 4T's set up by the Israeli's are well recognised.

Churchill was referring to the need to guard against the descent of a Soviet 'Iron Curtain' even before the Third Reich was finally vanquished. So, we were probably pretty keen to re-arm the emergent occupied European countries, as well as our former enemies. And, of course, shortly after the war NATO came about.

[Giove]

The scope and the bracket in the pics in post n. 24, are original. I have a similar one and I am sure it's an original because the person who had this is the same one where I bought one of the "Italian sniper" I have, his father bought it from Terni's arsenal (now PMAL of Terni). All the originals come from the former arsenal of Terni.

After the armistice (September 8, 1943) the Italian Army in "liberated areas" (South), fought alongside the Allies, and was supplied with British equipment and guns (also Lee-Enfield); yes, in 1944 - 1945. (See the attached pics). In the pic Italian officers of the Friuli fighting group.

Can not attach pdf files?