Britain In 1940 (Evacuation at Dunkirk)

[usabaker]

I was reading a few 1976 THE AMERICAN RIFLEMAN issues looking for the article on making 45 ACP Shotshells and ran across this interesting article in the "Dope Bag" a user comment section and thought some here might find it interesting.

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Britain In 1940
Birmingham, England
Editor:
May I add a little to your article on Britain in 1940?

I cannot remember exactly how soon after the evacuation at Dunkirk, but it could only have been a matter of a few days when we received a telephone call from the City Police. Within a few hours, we must accumulate all our stock of rifles, guns and ammunition (except cal. .22) to be collected. Within a matter of two or three hours, the Army arrived with their vehicles. We tried to take accurate records, but the speed of the operation made it impossible.

Guns were all the same to the Army, whether they were service rifles or Purdey shotguns. All were grabbed and slung shoulder-wise into the trucks. One old Birmingham gun maker wept when he saw his be loved guns treated in this Way. We were told that arms and ammunition
from gunsmiths' stocks were to be stored in the Town Hall. Our Army had lost their at weapons Dunkirk, and our newly formed Home Guard was virtually unarmed. We hoped our motley collection would be put to use, but it seemed the real intention was to put them out of reach of the enemy. I think I am right in saying no legislation existed at the time allowing the Police or government to take weapons forcibly from registered dealers. The Emergency Powers act came later. However, panic ruled.

A few days later we received a large consignment of .303 rifles which had been in transit and thereby. missed the requisition. These were supplied to factory Home Guard units who formed units at their own expense.

America's generosity was short to provide us with 1917 Enfield Rifles for OUr Home Guard although some misinformed official at the War Office called them Ross rifles. It took years to correct that impression. I hope Major Hession's generosity also in sending his rifles would have been well
rewarded had we been in that desperate situation. (See "The Rifle That Came Home From The War," p. 10, The American Rifleman, Feb., 1975)
I do not remember having heard of the "Civilian Committee for the Protection of Homes, Birmingham in 1940." Our Firearms Act was still in force.

The ordinary civilian was quite ignorant of firearms and the raw Home Guard was being trained by ex-Army and Rifle Club members. Well, we could always have used pitchforks.

-Miss E. R. Parker
(An NRA Member, Miss Parker is now Mallaging Director of Alfred 1. Parker,
Ltd., manufacturers of small arms in Birmingham, England.-Editor)

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[CINDERS]

I reckon one of the most poignant pictures of the early war was King George VI standing at the beach facing to the ocean with his hands clasped behind him, the country was truly in a desperate plight following Operation Dynamo and the evacuation of Dunkirk.

Trivia ~ Allot of the army and naval personnel got the sh*ts on with the RAF with the evacuation, reckoning that they were not covering the beaches to keep the Luftwaffe at bay and were skulking from their duties to engage the enemy.
Fact was the RAF pilots were engaging the German Luftwaffe miles inland far away from the beaches out of sight of the evacuating troops had they not done so at great cost to themselves then the slaughter would have been complete among those trapped on the beach and in the ocean.
Thank goodness Stuffy Dowding refused to send anymore fighters to France as well lest the Battle of Britain have a different outcome.....

[mrclark303]

These personal stories from this pivotal point in World history really are fascinating.

Had Britain been forced to the negotiation table, (invasion would likely have failed and the Germans knew it) and an accommodation reached with Germany, 20th century history would have been quite different..

I've always been sceptical regarding the rifle shortage. The reality was there were still many hundreds of thousands of Enfield's in storage from WW1 after Dunkirk. I've always been of the impression that the big 'gun drive' from the the US was more of an attempt to win over the American public, part of dragging Uncle Sam into the war.

[Flying10uk]

Had Britain been forced to the negotiation table,

The result for Britain may well have been something like "Vichy France" and Germany may still have invaded at a later date when it was better prepared.

[mrclark303]

The result for Britain may well have been something like "Vichy France" and Germany may still have invaded at a later date when it was better prepared.

I don't see it F10. The invasion of the UK was played out in the late 1960's as a series of war games at Sandhurst.

The Germans loose, as they simply can't support the number of troops needed. The RN and British Army would have worn them down with an eventual withdrawal or surrender inevitable.

The UK was in a very difficult position from France geopolitically and geographically.

The interesting thing would be what would happen to the third Reich without the UK's involvement.

Quite possibly, Hitler wouldn't have declared war on the US after Pearl Harbour and the US would have taken on the Japanese alone.

The Third Reich could well have stayed in place for decades until it collapsed under its own weight like the Soviet Union eventually did.

Or would the German invasion of Russia still have failed leading to a Europe eventually occupied by the USSR?

Certainly, without Britain, the US probably couldn't have become involved in Europe, even if it wanted to, without a European base it would have been quite impossible.

There are so many possible variations in play that could have altered the outcome.

One things for sure, had the UK agreed peace terms with Hitler instead of fighting on, the world would have looked very different today...

[CINDERS]

Britain sent out the call to all its colonies for weapons in lieu of the so called shortage of S.A's.

Roosevelt was pretty canny in how he supported the Brit's yes he gave them destroyers for escorts but they were vintage ships along with having Britain with the lend lease agreement which took that country till the 1990's to pay off its debt to the USA, everything comes at a cost.

By the time Hitler reached the shores of France his army and airforce were rather worn out with the German involvement in the Spanish Civil War being active from 29 July 1936 – 26 May 1939 with no break in combat then fighting their way through Poland & France so an imminent invasion was not possible.
The breather was him attacking Russia which divided his battle plans onto 2 fronts a godsend for the western allies thankfully he was delusional in his targets which undid them big time but had he pulled it off the world under the swastika and the rising sun would not have been a very nice place.

[Flying10uk]

Post 4, I did state "at a later date", i.e. after a peace deal with Germany had been signed.

The point that I was trying to imply and make was that I do not believe that Hitler would have offered us a peace deal in 1940, after Dunkirk, out of the goodness of his heart and wanting nothing in return. Hitlers version of a peace deal in June 1940 would probably have involved extracting the maximum amount possible from Britain in terms of war material and anything we had left to defend ourselves, like ships and aircraft. Hitlers version of a peace deal in 1940 would have left us pretty much defenceless.

Hitler had a peace deal with Russia yet he still invaded. Hitler had an armistice with Vichy France yet he still invaded. Hitler invaded numerous neutral countries.

[mrclark303]

Post 4, I did state "at a later date", i.e. after a peace deal with Germany had been signed.

The point that I was trying to imply and make was that I do not believe that Hitler would have offered us a peace deal in 1940, after Dunkirk, out of the goodness of his heart and wanting nothing in return. Hitlers version of a peace deal in June 1940 would probably have involved extracting the maximum amount possible from Britain in terms of war material and anything we had left to defend ourselves, like ships and aircraft. Hitlers version of a peace deal in 1940 would have left us pretty much defenceless.

Hitler had a peace deal with Russia yet he still invaded. Hitler had an armistice with Vichy France yet he still invaded. Hitler invaded numerous neutral countries.

Evening F10, there is still the fundamental difference that the UK was still a powerful country,even after Dunkirk. You have to bare in mind that the UK was still a leading industrial power at this time, it's industry in the process of turning to War production.

The Germans knew that breaking the UK would be difficult, if not impossible, so a settlement would be the ideal, especially after the Luftwaffe was broken and effectively beaten in the Battle of Britain.

The losses from Dunkirk were well on the way to being replaced by August/September 1940, personnel numbers and equipment being rebuilt and rapidly expanding across all three services as a total War footing took hold in the UK.

To negotiate the UK out of the War would have given Hitler a clear run at Russia without hinderance.

The potential what if's really are facinating...

[CINDERS]

If there was a deal then what of the English fleet and its ships!

Churchill did not muck around with the French capital ships when they were in peril of being seconded by the German navy as bad as it was at the time it was an act that necessitated their destruction.

Attack on Mers-el-Kébir - Wikipedia

[Flying10uk]

there is still the fundamental difference that the UK was still a powerful country, even after Dunkirk.

But you are assuming that Hitler would have wanted nothing in return for a peace deal with Britain, after Dunkirk, in 1940. I do not believe that this would have been the case. Whatever sort of deal may have emerge after negotiations with Hitler in 1940, I believe that it would have been a very one sided deal stacked very much in Germany's favour, leaving Britain severely weakened and very venerable.

---------- Post added at 11:59 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:51 PM ----------

If there was a deal then what of the English fleet and its ships!

We wouldn't have got to keep the entire Royal Navy because it was too much of a threat to Germany. There are several ways that any peace deal with Hitler could of addressed the matter.