Remington 11 info needed

[emmagee1917]

I don't know which part you are disagreeing with , Chuck , but some more "commercial" examples of which I speak. WW1 , Colt , could not provide 1917 revolvers in numerical order by serial number , had to be stamped with a second number ( the service number) and go by that to do so. ( I have never figured that out).
Carbines--lots of commercial carbine manufacturers did not use all the numbers in thier assigned blocks and did not assemble in order in thier blocks. Some did not even use thier blocks in order , and at least once one used part of one block , then used all of a second , then returned to the first block.
Several times one manufacturer would run short of a part and have some transfered from another manufacturer ( including recievers). These parts had to of came from a stash they had to pull from to send ( otherwise they would have then been out.
Garands--I remember something about the WIN-13 Winchesters , and I remember someting simular with either H&R or INT.
Now , in this particular case , the bbls were marked with the date WHEN MADE. It was stamped with the serial number WHEN MATED to that reciever. In between , the bbls were in storage and were pulled when needed. They did not spend the time to make sure all the January bbls were used before going on to Feburary's , nor did they throw the January bbls away when they were dragged out because they were already using March's bbls. , they just used them.
This is why you have to make educated guesses on some guns you find. The books may say there is a small problem , but the gun looks right as far as finish and wear. New info is comming to light all the time and a LOT of what we KNEW to be fact a few years ago we now know is not always the case because new exceptions have been found.
Chris

[Chuckindenver]

the original post is about Remington m11 shotguns, not the other weapons.
Remington and Savage shotguns used by the military.
when they left the factory and were brand new, all the serial numbers matched.
barrel, reciever, trigger group, and buttstock.
though doubtful, it is possible that they would set back receivers for shotguns.
i have seen some with a barrel replaced, the old number was lined out, and the serial number of the new receiver was stamped, and a punch mark next to it to mark that the shotgun had been headspaced.
remember.
this is about a Remington shotgun, not a carbine, Garand or 1917 pistol..
a shotgun.

[emmagee1917]

Well , Chuck , I never said the numbers did not match on the parts of a particular gun when it left the factory. The numbers were "forced" matched when they were mated with the reciever. Let's say they made a bbl in Jan. , they would date code it at that time. They would not put a serial number on it then. Weeks or months later they would use that bbl to assemble a shotgun. At that time the serial number from that reciever would be stamped onto the bbl , triggerguard , stock , etc. They would then finish the assembly / polishing / finishing and send her out. This is why the bbl date codes do not follow serial number procession exactly , but tend to be close for the most part only.
In the example at the begining , just because the bbl dates do not follow the serial number spacing would not be a concern to me on the originality of the guns if the serial numbers matched between the parts. Chris

[Chuckindenver]

well, if it make you feel better, i agree with most of what was said,
however, as per Remington M11 training, and riot shotguns,
the barrel, reciever, trigger group housing, buttstock and barrel were all numbered with the complete serial number, before they left the factory.
its been my observation, on guns that have had the barrels changed my the gov, they had a serial number lined out, and the new one restamped above it, and a small punch mark to show that it was headspaced.
i have seen Remington M11,s with a US marked barrel on a non US reciever,
likey changed by someone other then Remington or the military.
and that brings me to the original post, if the numbers do not match the headspace should be checked before firing..safety with these old shotguns is first and foremost.
if the serial was forced matched, id still check it to be safe..better then a face full of hot gas and powder.
its been my observation that these shotguns didnt get the same attention as did the Garands, Carbines, 1911,s ect. not real sure why.
most didnt see much use, and the reason why they are found in great shape.
lots of GI parts can be found for them as well, unused, and in the wrap.
i have a box full of spare GI parts for M11 and Savage shotguns..
im one of the few collectors that actually like those old hard kickers, and own a few, along with a couple trench guns.
i agree with what you said about parts being held back, and put in storage.
barrels, receivers ect,

[emmagee1917]

:>) I repeat , I never said they did not leave the factory unmatched.
They DID leave the factory with all numbered parts matching each other.
What I did say was the 1 reciever made did not leave with the 1st bbl made on it , an so on. The parts were pulled from a stock bin , placed together to be assembled as a firearm , and at some point in the building thereof all the pieces were stamped with the serial number. This could have been a final step , or it may have been done before the parts were separated to go to other stages ( finishing , buttplate fitting , etc.) so that when they came back they could be assembled together to preserve the fitting of parts / headspacing / etc. that had already been done.

AHA--you are talking about post 15 , I was answering post 17. I don't think we really disagree on anything.
These guns were not what you would call military weapons , but rather commercial weapons pressed into military service. They were not held to the strict tolerances of other weapons because they knew the different models of shotguns from all the different factories would have no interchangeability of parts and would be just a small percentage of the weapons issued anyway. They were looking to fill a need at that time , and realized that after the war if they junked them all it would be no big expense. This would be true of all the shotguns , the revolvers , most of the .22 trainers , etc.
Chris

[smelly sam]

... any information on the Model 51 Remingtons that were used by the Navy as he had one with the anchor on it...

Navy did evaluate the Pedersen design, but in a heavier calibre, which was the Model 53 and I think only 6 were hand made for evaluation by Navy - and they liked them. The anchor and the Navy are obvious bedfellows, but in this instance the joining of the dots is in error. As Johnny Peppers points out the anchor is a standard Remington proof mark, not proof of being in-the-navy.