Drill Purpose Rifle L59A1 UK Legal Status

[Peter Laidler]

You don't need to agree Beerhunter......... A skeletonised already been through the magistrates court and deemed to be not a firearm as defined. But a magistrates court decision is not the last word. But it carries great weight. Much like Home Office Guidance.

Let's not have any more defeatist talk........... If you own either, 'lawfully' or otherwise .....depending on your point of view, you can be an optomist or a pessimist

[Enfieldlock]

Sorry, can't agree. I habitually used to fire blanks at school from one. (I never had the guts to try live but I reckon that it would as a minimum cope with a reduced load.) I simply substituted a 'service rifle' bolt for the skeletonised one. I know from meeting other ex CCF and ACF Cadets over the years, I was not alone.

If you are referring to the L59, then the bolt head is solid with no hole for the firing pin. The Catch Bolt Locking is fixed (presumed welded) in such a way as to prevent removal of the bolt assembly.

However. For the record, I have an L59 which is still on the RFDs holding. I'm just waiting for the war to start with the HO.

The Proof House do not have an option but to not give it a Deact Cert. The claim they must follow the HO guidelines, but appreciate the stupidity of the present position with the L59.

The HO have no interest in a common sense attitude. They enjoy prevaricating and that, mixed with control freakery, means they have to be forced into submission.

[Peter Laidler]

The standard L59 bolt is fully removeable EFL. There is a pin in the boltway that brevents a servce bolt head from passing a certain point.

This is going to be the problem I fear because so many 'owners' have different ideas about exactlky what an L59 is. There is even a chromed one out there!!!!!! But it's not an L59!

[Beerhunter]

1. If you are referring to the L59

2. The Proof House do not have an option but to not give it a Deact Cert. The claim they must follow the HO guidelines, but appreciate the stupidity of the present position with the L59.

1. No I am not. I was referring to a post about the No4 Skeletons. In my opinion the two (Skeleton and L59) should not be bundled together in these discussions.

2. I agree with the Proof House - sadly. In my opinion, the Proof House's claim is valid because that is what is laid down in the Statute. To enable an L59 to be considered deactivated the Home Office Guidelines need to be changed. I posted the two factors in the Statute for a firearms to be considered deactivated and that they comply with the Home Office Guidelines is one of them. That is where (the HO) the pressure needs to be applied.

BTW as soon as this is sorted, I want one. I have never wanted one until now. Currently I wouldn't mind just seeing one.

[read6737]

Was a Skeleton ever a firearm? Was it ever in a state to fire a projectile?
If it was made with parts that are slightly different to the original and will not work. A child's toy is made with parts that will not allow it to fire a projectile but it still looks like a firearm.
If not it was never a firearm it cannot be deactivated.
The only time that an item such as a toy or a banana is treated as a firearm is when it is used in a crime and the victim perceives the item to be an offensive weapon and the offender is charged as if it was a real firearm.

I think you need to start at the beginning.
What is it ? a fire arm yes or no.
Was it ever a firearm?* yes or no.
What was it designed as / for?
Can it ever be converted into a firearm using its load bearing / restricted parts (if any) ?
When was it made. Age is important as it may fall into different legal definitions.
In all my police experience you must start at the beginning to prove what it is, and what it is NOT.
this list could get much longer.

Also the police use the forensic lab at Huntington to examine firearms / air guns for their expert opinion if something is a firearm or not, or to say what it is or not. I have visited the firearms store room there when I use to take DNA evidence there in the late 90s, there were plenty of guns waiting examination.

So gather the expert evidence to say what it is and is not.
The police also use the experts at the Imperial war museum, The tower of London etc etc. The experts are out there so find them..
How was the obsolete caliber list and firearms drawn up?
With the use and input of experts.

just my thoughts.

[Enfieldlock]

BTW as soon as this is sorted, I want one. I have never wanted one until now. Currently I wouldn't mind just seeing one.

You're not that far from Sussex, you can come and see mine whenever.......

We have lots of other nice Enfields as well

[Enfieldlock]

One of the major factors when considering the L59 is that it will chamber a round. it was designed to chamber a drill round for demonstration/teaching purposes.

However, in it's designed state, it could never discharge the a live round neither could a projectile leave the barrel.

[Peter Laidler]

In answer to READ6737. So many questions, so little time...... They are all relevant and many can be very simply answered. And I agree, that the onus of proof is upon the prosecution. But the fact is that the L59 was converted from a service rifle as a General Staff Requirement in the 70's. Advice WAS taken from Huntingdon by the person who drew up the spec and had it approved. Furthermore, the authorised L54 DP Bren version of the rifle was openly on sale as a deact, even before deacts were invented!

It is '....so structurally altered as to be wholly incapable of supporting the shock or load of discharge'.

All it takes now is a report from an august body to the HO, backed up with facts and if necessary............. I could go on.....

[Alan de Enfield]

This may appear to be somewhat at a tangent to the subject of this thread but I think it shows the problems the UK gun-owners can have with the Police.

I'm sure many of you will know the story of Mick Shepherd.

The Met Police raided Mick's Guns and siezed all his section 58 (Antique guns of obsolete calibre )weapons for which a licence is not needed.
They insisted they were section 5 (banned weapons)

After 10 months in custody and a court case Mick was released as 'an innocent man without a stain to his name'.

Despite the Judges ruling, two and a half years later the weapons and personal possessions have not been returned.

This is the anti-gun status of the UK

http://www.micksguns.com/

[read6737]

This anti gun status is one reason I left the uk.
When I stop shooting and I do not renew my shooting permit I will still have all my firearms including my 4T. 98 mausers and all in shooting condition.