Winchester Model 12 navy, need help with ID, value.

[Texwing]

Wow I love those A5's and the Remington copies as well, I did not know there was a military version. Thanks for that in depth response, I will print it out and put it with my records on the gun. So, what would you guess my gun is worth as a training gun, since you seem to have some recent experience on the non combat shotguns? Thanks again for the help.

[Harlan (Deceased)]

Texwing,

I couldn't even beginning to speculate the value of your gun. M12's are in a complete different spectrum than M11's. M11''s are the least valuable of any of the WWII shotguns, and I paid $700 for my M11 training gun three years ago.

I just searched for completed auctions on Gunbroker and didn't find anything for complete M12's, but some of the parts by themselves were very expensive.

Hopefully someone with current knowledge might be able to give you an idea.

You might even email Bruce Canfield and ask him. (If you email him, he'll also be able to sell you his book for a good price and sign it - well worth the money!)

The 'contact Bruce' link goes to his personal email.

Bruce Canfield - Books

Good luck, and let us know what you find!
~ Harlan

[Viper225]

I was contacted by Texwing after he came across me looking up the same information on a different site. I have pretty close to a twin to his gun from what he tells me after I sent him my pictures for review.

1940 Barrel Date
SER: 92635X (Told on a different site 1941 Mfg Date)
Barrel: 28" FULL Choke 2-3/4" Chamber Marked "Full" Choke.
Left Butt Stock Markings: WB and Cross Cannons Ordinance Wheel
Left Receiver Centered U.S.
Top of barrel RW with "Open Flaming" Bomb over it, not beside it.
Serial Numbers same on both the Barrel and Action
Condition from review of my pictures: 90%
No painted on markings or tags.

The information I have gathered so far from other sites: This would appear to be a very early WWII Military Model 12. Pre WWII Main Weapons Contracts. It is fully marked like a WWII Model 97, and not like other War Time Model 12's.

From the other sites info:

Texwing's and mine are the only 28" Full Choke Military Model 12's anyone seems to have ever seen outside of while in the military service a very long time ago.

No one has came forward with one like these in a collection so far.

These (Corrected 3) appear to be the only known Model 12's with WWII Model 97 Style Military Markings. I would guess that more exist, however so far no one seems to know where they are.

I am no expert, but with only 2 known examples of 28" FULL Choke Model 12"s with WWII Model 97 Military Markings, these are collectable.


I am wondering with WWII Model 97 Military Markings on these 2 Model 12's, if these are not some of the very first Model 12's purchased by the Military after WWI contracts were filled. I am not a collector, and I do not have the books. Someone who collects should know this informatiuon.

NOTE: I just e-mailed Bruce Canfield. Maby he will be able to shed some light on these 2 guns.

Just My 2 Cents

[Harlan (Deceased)]

I had noted the serial number was before the large production began, but didn't read anything else other than the 'long barrels' were called training guns.
I hope they turn out to be some rare variant.

Let us know what you find, and good luck!

~ Harlan

[John Ed]

After seeing the original post and pics . I finally went and dug out of my safe a similar shotgun.

Here are the stats.
Winchester Model 12 S/N 92637X
Barrel length 20 in.
Barrel marked cyl.
Barrel date 41
Large Ord. Bomb on top (like on early 97's)
Receiver/barrel ext. match
I can see no markings on the stock (probably a old replacement)

I purchased it about two years ago off Gunbroker for the price of a common model 12 riot.

I am glad to see similar marked shotguns
Maybe more will come to light.

John Ed

[Viper225]

John Ed

Your's should have the U.S. centered on the Left side of the receiver the same as Texwing's and mine, I would think.

My Serial Number is 92635X
Yours Serial Number is 92637X

They are within 20 some odd of the same serial number. Yours being a Riot Gun is interesting. Looks like a contract with Riot and Training Shotguns on the same order.

This makes 3 marked the same so far.

[Viper225]

TexWing

QUESTION: You mention the RW Inspectors stamp on the top of the barrel. Does yours have the OPEN Flaming Bomb stamp infront of, or beside the RW?

QUESTION: Could you get a few more numbers on your Serial Numberr, and X the last number?

With the Riot Gun listed above it looks like we have 3 marked alike so far.

Making a little progress slowly.

[John Ed]

Viper

Yes it does have the large U.S. on the left side.

I think you are correct as in regards to the contract speculation.

Hopefully others will turn up.

John Ed

[Viper225]

John Ed & Texwing

I am wondering if all 3 of us need to get a complete set of pictures of our guns to Bruce Canfield. It would look like we have 3 so far that are stamped differently than any Model 12's know previously.

How are the 20,000 World War One Model 12 Trench Guns Stamped, Metal as well as Wood?

I would presume that World War Two Model 97's are all stamped with the U.S. on the Left Receiver and the Open Flame Bomb on the top of the barrel, and the WB Inspectors Cartouche with Cross Cannon Ordinance Wheel on the stock, or did this depend if they were Riot or Trench Guns? Are Model 97's stamped more than one way?

[John Ed]

Viper

Sounds like a good idea to send photos to Mr. Canfield.

I don't know if anyone has access to Springfield Research Service to check and see if any of these serial numbers show up.

As to you comment on World War One Model 12 trenchguns, I'm not sure if any exsist. There is one pictured in "The History of Winchester Firearms 1866-1975" by Watrous. My copy has it on page 74.

WWII Model 12 trenchguns were marked on the right side of the receiver under the ejection port. They had a U.S. and Ord. Bomb. A small Ord Bomb was on top of the barrel above the Winchester Proof mark. Stocks were marked on the left side with a boxed G.H.D. and Ord.Wheel (crossed cannons) Handguards were the 4x19 type.

WWII model 97's were marked on the left side of the receiver. Earlier guns had just U.S. on the lower left rear. later guns had the U.S. and Ord. bomb.

The barrels on the early guns had the "Open Flame" bomb in front of the Winchester Proof. Later guns had the smaller bomb as on the Model 12's.

I'm sure someone can chime in on the approx S/N ranges

If you don't have Mr. Canfields book on Combat Shotguns you should invest in one. It has good pics and info up to our current Military usage.

Sorry about being long winded

John Ed