P.14 & M. 17 Historical Query

[Surpmil]

The answer to the question would seem to be start logging serial numbers and see what patterns turn up. A useful endeavor in my limited experience.

[kragluver]

The Ferris book is very good. As more information becomes available on these rifles, I'm hopeful a second edition will be printed. I also understand that Canfield's book on Winchester's also covers the 1917.

[armabill]

I have Ferris's book and it's a good reference for me.

[breakeyp]

Harrison's one (and his Springfield one) have been much criticised for inaccuracies. I believe that the author is no longer alive.

Harrison self published a series of six spiral bound books on the following subjects:

P-17 The American Enfield (Error in title says it all)
Haarrison's Notebook US Military Arms catalog of inspection markings
Collecting the '03 springfield
US Pistols and Revolvers
US Military Markings 1900 to 1996
The M1 Carbine

Line drawings are used and are pretty good in detail. I have copies but don't use them much as his opinions surface with little supporting evidence. He stole material from all the published sources with no credits given. His P14 book is a direct knock off from Skennerton's works.

[DocLee]

One thing I know about the P14, and that is that it is one of the most acurate rifles I had the pleasure of shooting. My Eddy Stone P14 helped me to win several .303 compititions.
It is fitted with a Parker Hale target sight as was installed for sniping during WW2.
During the First WW three accurised No.3 (P14's) were issued per batallion, with side mounted scopes. During WW2 the same scope configuration, as well as center mounted scopes were used on the No.3 (P14) sniper rifles alongside the Lee Enfield No.4 Mk.1 (T).
In a photograph on our website, (LERASA) a group of Royal Marine Snipers that finished a refresher cours are posing with two of these No.3 (P14) sniper rifles.
I also converted a P14 that had it's furniture severly mutilated when I got it into a very accurate modern day sniper rifle. This rifle is one of the best long range rifles I've ever owned. I often use it to hunt at fairly long distances.

[Surpmil]

During the First WW three accurised No.3 (P14's) were issued per batallion, with side mounted scopes.

If I'm not mistaken, the P14 was only issued with the fine adjustment backsight for sniping in WWI as the No3 MkI*(F). Post-war this combination was the sniping rifle issue in Territorial battalions, while regular battalions got the No3 MkI*(T) with the Pattern 18 telescopic sight.

Thus the gospel according to Skennerton.

Apparently some authorities considered the P14 with F sight to be more accurate than the SMLE with telescopic sights. Accurate perhaps, but they left out target acquisition and speed of aiming... However, military orthodoxy returned with a vengeance post-WWI and sniping was lucky to survive at all I suppose. (The Machine Gun Corps for example was disbanded, despite having the King as Colonel in Chief!)

According to Skennerton it was intended in 1921 that the 3000+ Aldis scopes be retained for possible future use, but apparently only a few hundred were, if any, as when the impossible occured in 1939 the authorities were scrabbling for any scopes they could find. The odds & ends fitted up by Alex Martin to 421 of the Winchester P14s held in store for possible future sniper use, show I think that there were few if any scopes in store.

My personal guess is that they had none, and simply bought up whatever the gun trade and Aldis had lying around in 1940, as well as emptying out the Pattern Room's collection of 29 or so rifles.

[Mk VII]

The idea of having a separate MGC was always controversial, the Btns had been unhappy when the MGs were taken away from them to form it. Or course they ended up forming machine gun battalions again, even if they were badged as Line btns this time.

[Peter Laidler]

We've got a couple of those at work Mk7. It was one of this type of offset conversions that was used to formulate the fitting of the cheek rest. The rest as they say, is history

On the subject of snipers as related to what Mk7 has said above and the like, there's a few lines in the Small Arms School weapon training memorandum dated March 1940 that states:
1 SNIPERS
As snipers no longer form part of the organization of the infantry section, the reference to their use in Para 1 and 2 on page 4 of pamphlet No2 should be deleted.

There's a few more odds and sode referring to the No3T and No4T rifles that I'll pass on when I get round to it

[smellie]

Oh, my: Pattern '14s and M-1917s!

Regarding serials, it might be a good idea to put together all the surviving numbers which can be determined, remembering the meantime all those which were renumbered as 'new' pieces while being sportered. I can throw in a couple of serials here, just to get things started. I have W201401 and it shoots to beat the band: ragged single-hole 6-round groups at 145 yards. Unfortunately, it is past restoration, although the number survives at least.

As to very early rifles, I can state that serial number W305 still exists AND that it is in restorable condition. W305 has about 98% original finish on metal parts and the bore is very close to perfect. It has fired 35 rounds in the 45 years I have owned it.

Unusual rifles: I saw one at the Pattern Room in 1976 which had Liege proofmarks and had been factory-converted to 7.92x57 Mauser calibre. I was told that this was for use by the Belgian military but cannot find out anything else.

Large numbers of Pattern 1914 rifles were given to the three Baltic republics, Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia, when they were formed at the end of the Great War. These rifles were borrowed by Mother Russia when she 'protected' the three little countries in 1940 and, so far, have not been given back. As to serial numbers, it is possible, although not likely, that records were kept. The logical place for any such paperwork should be the Imperial War Museum, but it also is likely that that is asking the gods to be TOO merciful!

Anybody else?

[Surpmil]

....On the subject of snipers...there's a few lines in the Small Arms School weapon training memorandum dated March 1940 that states:
1 SNIPERS
As snipers no longer form part of the organization of the infantry section, the reference to their use in Para 1 and 2 on page 4 of pamphlet No2 should be deleted

I wonder if this meant the revival of a separate intelligence/sniping section instead of the snipers being divied out among the rifle companies.

Will resist a la Strangelove temptation to take thread off topic into MGC etc!

Whenever I handle one of my P14s I have a little grin at Reynold's comment about "the rather rough ("Sniff, sniff") American P14",

All round the best Mauser ever made really.

To correct somewhat what I wrote before, Skennerton in "The US Enfield" (which covers both the P14 and M17), says scopes were fitted to P14s 'unofficially' by the Canadians, Australians and others in 1917 & 1918. I have seen a photo of Canadian snipers in Mons in 1918 holding both P14s and Ross MkIIIs. The scopes unfortunately are not visible.