1916 Shortened SMLE Enfield?

[Nigel]

In the Imperial War Museum Review No.6, pages 4-15 is an article by Bryn Hammond - Professionals and specialists: military mining on the Western Front. It describes combat underground and a cut-down version of the .303 rifle is mentioned. Note 54 refers: A rifle of this type is illustrated in the Visit Diary of First Army Controller of Mines. PRO WO158-137. So if someone fancies a visit to Kew to find out more...!

[Peter Laidler]

I know that the mines and tunnels were noisy places, especially if you were inside one when it exploded, but I would doubt whether the cut down miners rifles were anything better than exactly that.... cut down rifles devoid of any finesse!

As for firing a rifle inside the confines of a tunnel, then let me tell you of my experience. I was the snipers Armourer and a couple of us, including an Instrument Tech Sergeant called Tony Bowman were adjusting the electronic folding targetry at a FIBUA (a mock village, made for house to house clearing and fighting...) and trying to get a window electric target to work. There was a sniper pair (a Gurkha and a Welch Guardsman) in the room we were working in. They were sat in a hide, built behind some old wardrobes and curtains etc etc. I had sorted out a bit of wiring and had the target in a window flicking up and down a few times when the Gurkha told me to do it a few more times as they were observing it. So I did, making it operate as though 'he' was peeping through the window. All of a sudden the baxxxxx opened fire at it. I was laying on the floor, in front of them, at the electronic control box with Tony Bowman, AVO multimeter in hand and the flash and roar of the L42 being fired in the enclosed room with just a window open was absolutely horrendous. It blew the multimeter out of our hands, we dropped the loose wiring, the target disappeared (as it would, he'd hit it.....) and it blew our ears out. We were deaf for days.

Tony Bowman went ballistic too and told the pair what a shower of sxxxx they were but I don't think they took any notice, They'd got their score and a good hit too.

As for firing one in the tunnels..... only once!

[John Sukey (Deceased)]

Not to argue, but those WW1 tunnels were quiet places, not noisy. Both sides had listeners to detect the other side's tunnels. Make a lot of noise digging, and you could suddenly find a camouflet destroying your tunnel and terminating your military career.

[Story]

I just stumbled upon your thread, since I was thinking about building a 16.25" barreled copy of the shortened SMLE mentioned somewhere in Skennerton's book on the Enfield. From what I remember, they were salvaged rifles with barrels cut down to 12" or so and a simply 'v' notch on the front receiver ring.

I gather the article you mentioned has no further information on this shortened SMLE?

[Badger]

I just stumbled upon your thread, since I was thinking about building a 16.25" barreled copy of the shortened SMLE mentioned somewhere in Skennerton's book on the Enfield. From what I remember, they were salvaged rifles with barrels cut down to 12" or so and a simply 'v' notch on the front receiver ring.

I gather the article you mentioned has no further information on this shortened SMLE?

Check the England MKL .....

Besides the article on the experimental 1944 No.1 Intermediate Shortened Lightened Rifle (Mfg by SAF Lithgow) in the Australia MKL, there's also another excellent article by Terry Hawker on the Enfield Shortened No. 1 Mk III* Rifle.

Regards,
Badger

[breakeyp]

Son,

Forgot to mention, please don't assume that the Pattern Room collection has one of everything ever officially made in the Mother Country. I'm sure I am not the only collector that has personal proof that dear old Herb didn't live long enough to get it all, bless him.

Terry

Amen to that. Herb told me that the sources for the Pattern Room were donations from the using service after they were done with evaluations, captured items (when we were there, they were just sorting out some items sent in by Desert Storm troops, transfers from Police department siezed items and items surrendered during the various amnesties. He stated he did have a small budget for direct purchases but I gathered it was a paperwork nightmare. He did show me a beautiful Dara made NO.1 Mk1 that looked so good--the only klinker was the set screw on the rear sight was engraved in place, not real. My observations were that the Pattern Room had few examples of normal production arms--only the odd ball stuff.

[Story]

From Skennerton's THE LEE ENFIELD

During the trench fighting of the Great War, some SMLE rifles were cut down for use by the Tunnelling Companis. In 'Villiers-Stuart Goes to War', Brigadier-General W.D. Villier-Stuart in 1915 raised and took the 9th Battalion Rifle Brigade to France until they virtually ceased to exist as a fighting Regiment in September of 1915 because of the large number of casualties.

Villiers-Stuart records ...'when last in 'Y' Wood sector [Ypres] I had seen that the bombers were very much hampered by their rifles. I thought a lot about it and finally took a salvaged rifle along to the Field Ordnance repair shop and got a conductor to cut it down to a 12-inch barrel, re-braze the foresight block and sight to the muzzle of that, and remove the backsight and bed altogether, cutting a 'V' in the bridge charger guide to replace it (the upper sling swivel was discarded and the lower band shifted back to take a sling swivel)'.

'This made a very good close-quarter weapon and the nose cap being repositioned on the shortened fore-end meant that a sword (bayonet) could be fixed. I then had ten more made and issued them to Officers for testing. We tried them on teh butts and found them very accurate to 100 yards and ma sure they would ahve been good at two hundred yards as well.'

In the event, these shortened rifles were not developed any further because Villiers-Stuart states that, 'The American sawn-off shotgun* came along and was better for close-quarter fighting'.

* Presumably, the 12 gauge Winchester Model 1897 Trench Gun.

This would be a fun conversion to make, with a SMLE that had a worn-down muzzle. Laws in the US would require it to have a 16 1/2" barrel, though.

[Chrono_ZX]

Fourth picture is hard to see markings. Do you have it focused?

[browningautorifle]

Fourth picture is hard to see markings. Do you have it focused?

You better have a look at the date of the post and thread...2009. Almost a nine year old thread... Some of those guys aren't here anymore. That's why we don't dredge up old threads...usually.

[Badger]

Amen...

Thread closed as it's almost as old as I am ...

Regards,
Doug

Edited to update with explanation ...

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