Need help/advice on a wandering POI problem

[gravityfan]

Here's an update on the problem. Thanks again for all contributions, and an interesting discussion on the merits/demerits of various types of linseed oil.

Scary to think of all the time I've used Ace Hardware toxic BLO. I guess what the ravages of time have failed to do to my nuts, Ace will have completed!

Edward, I found the exact same brand of LO at the artsy craftsy store as per your photo. Thanks for that. I have used it repeatedly on the stock, and it seems to go on a lot better, and give a nicer result. Must be the removal of the fatty bits as you describe. I think that although it is more expensive, it is worth the difference for the better results.

Smellie, you were bang on. I don't know how I missed it on first inspection, but there indeed was what I assume to be the Damned Crack. Vertically down the rear face of the stock, just slightly left of centre. As you said, where the wood is at its thinnest due to the trigger channel.

So I used a previously reliable wood glue to bond it together. Quick range trip. 8" vertical movement. Back home and strip the rifle - the crack had opened up.

So I took the advice and used an Epoxy. Thoroughly cleaned and degreased first, forced as much into the crack as I could, clamped it and cleaned it up the next day. Quick range trip, only for a repeat performence. It has opened again.

I can't think how I can bond it any better than my attempt with the Epoxy. It is almost as if it needs some cross-reinforcing. I'd hate to do that, it is all still nice and standard (except for the crack).

Has anyone any helpful hints so that I can make the repair last?

Thanks again to all.

Cheers.

[jmoore]

One drama when gluing wood that's been previously oiled is that your adhesive bonds to the surface oils rather than the wood. Now, in order to make repairs you will have to remove not only the old oils (not terrifically difficult) but the glue and epoxy as well (very difficult!). Might be time for an internal splice to bridge the offending area.



BTW, Mr. Horton, neither do I care for several properties of BLO on gunstocks, but it is rather more available, and it gets used for many other things. There's more than a few agricultural implements about for which its dandy, and it's particularly good for axe handles and such, esp. after it cures a while. Anyway, the lack of additives is what got my attention after reading your previous warnings.

My ancient supply of Sherwin Williams RLO is about gone, however the knothead at the local S-W store didn't even know what linseed oil was, much less that is was a product of their's...

[Peter Laidler]

Gravity fan, you've JUST explained to all why there is such as thing as an 'Ishy Screw', invented by the British and thereafter adopted by the Indians and hated by the remainder of the world of Lee Enfield collectors.

To do a proper repair, forget about epoxy this that and the other and either use the big Ishy Screw OR clean off, peg and glue it. The method had been well used by many generations of British Army Armourers and a pictorial article has been written in the past for you to follow.

But, before you do, take a few pics and show the remainder of the forumers how you did it and how easy it is

[Rowdy]

The fore-end of an SMLE has a higher proportion of the total mass than the original long lee thus loading the locating draws under recoil often causing damage.
If the stock is damaged and loose in this area no amount of gluing will fix the problem as the front trigger guard screw will prise the stock apart as it moves foreward under recoil.
Repairing the damaged area that bears on the sear mount lugs on the reciever is the only cure.
Lithgow rifles with their softer stocks were usually reinforced with copper blocks in this area.Attachment 14977

[gravityfan]

The Ishy Screw, and the front trigger guard screw - wouldn't they relate to problems in front of the trigger guard?

My split/crack is on the very rearmost face of the stock, that face which is against the wrist.

I can't see how there is enough wood there to put in a screw or peg. Isn't that why there is an external tie strap on the Mk.1s, there not being enough wood for an internal device to hold lateral pressure?

I apologise if I am mis-describing or confusing my descriptions. I'll see if I can dig out the old camera and post a piccy.

Cheers

[jmoore]

Considering the No.4 Mk.2 has NO wood in that area, a small split is unlikely to create an 8 MOA POI shift.
Still, if you want to make a repair, there's been a few pictorial threads done. See some of Louthepou's work on the Restorer's Corner Forum ( https://www.milsurps.com/forumdisplay.php?f=96) on this site. Also, I believe Edward Horton and Bigduke6, and some other whose names I forget (sorry) have similar photos and repair descriptions.

[Peter Laidler]

I agree with JM there............. That area could easily be repaired by the insertion of a hard wood patch, pegged in place and made good. In fact, from memory, couldn't you insert a wood patch internally right up to and including the draws? If it was mine, and original, that's what I'd be thinking about

[Thunderbox]

I'm not sure that the issue isn't being a bit over-complicated; most No4 Mk1s have a minor crack in the rear stock, and it has no effect on shooting performance. POI movement on warming is usually just a symptom of a minor barrel channel/ handguard obstruction - most commonly the front handguard fouling the foresight protector - and not some sort of major receiver bedding problem or perceived BLO starvation.

"I did notice when I first reassembled it that the front handguard cap was touching the foresight block (I don't have a protector because of the PH sight). I relaxed the band screws, pressed the handguard to the rear, and re-tightened. That leaves it with a small gap and its cap is now flush with the stock cap and leaves a small but noticeable gap between the caps and the sight block."

Did you re-test the rifle after this adjustment - did the error persist?

If you don't have a foresight protector fitted, then there should be a distinct gap between the foresight block and the handguards. Is your foresight block correctly pinned to the barrel? Sometimes the pin is omitted when target sights are swapped over, and it may be that the block itself is set too far back.

[gravityfan]

jmoore, you make a vary valid and interesting point. Maybe this split has been there all along and I am grasping at straws. I am desperate to find out why the rifle suddenly and catastrophically changed its behaviour. As per all the above posts, I can't find anything else wrong.

Peter, that's an interesting idea, but beyond my meagre (read: crappy) woodworking skills. I do have some spare fore-ends, maybe I could try to follow your articles on stock bedding by fitting a new one to this action. That would be a most interesting project, and I have hard copies of your articles; many thanks for writing and sharing those.

Thunderbox, sad to say that it is all too repeatable. After the wood glue fix attempt, it must have split again imemdiately (if that is what is causing the problem), giving a narrow vertical descending 8" string of holes. After the Expoy repair attempt, the first 4 were reasonably consistant, then the rest staggered downwards over the full 8". I assumed this was because the repair lasted for the first few rounds, then split again. I have also let it all cool off to ambient, and repeated with exactly the same results. No question - 8" drop as it warms over 20 rounds.

The front block is pinned, and I have been keeping an eye on the gap between the front handguard and the block. The woodwork is all nicely solid, and doesn't move around.

I guess I put my hopes on the split in the stock causing the problem, because for a couple of years, this rifle has done consistant, POI at POA, 2" or smaller groups. Then suddenly this behaviour starts. I assumed that it must be some catastrophic, or at least noticeable, change or failure that had occurred. The split in the wood is the only thing that I can find that appears "wrong". Other than that, I'm stumped. Nothing else seems to have suddenly changed.

Cheers again to all for the input. Thanks for helping. Any further ideas that I can try? Changing the stock sounds favourite at the moment.

[jmoore]

If you have a spare, go ahead and try it out. Don't change anything else that doesn't require it for a correct fit, and see what happens. At least you'll have some more to go on.

Other thoughts-

Have you checked your fore stock tip up-pressure at both the start and finish of the string?

Also, the nature of the stringing suggests that your dramas are either in the barrel itself, or in the front end of the rifle, not the back, as it seems heat influenced. The crack in the back would seem to me to add randomness to the situation, not a repeatable phenomenom(enomenom).

The rear sight isn't one of those sheet metal jobs, is it?