german marked SMLE (real or fake?)

[Peter Laidler]

Let me ask anyone else out there who has ever seen a rifle....., any rifle....., that's been through the UK Military FTR programme that has come out still bearing the old unit markings etc etc stamped into the butt. It just wouldn't happen......... Let alone bear German markings......., I mean...., well, they really need to get out a bit more.......... When I say UK Military, I also refer to Lithgow too, who worked pretty well closely to the UK system and even into the L1A1 rifle days, there was always plenty of interchange of ideas, methods and doctrine.

I have recently seen another rifle, a No4T, owned by someone who's had it for 30 years and all that old pure horse manure, stuck at the back of his cupboard and has now decided to sell it. It's a Fazakerley No4 Mk2. But you can't tell him it's a fake. I've even tried telling him in easily understood Army terms of few words. The older they are and the longer they've had it and the more they believe, the more entrenched they become.........

As with the Bren we know about, it wasn't waffen-wotsit (?) stamp as such, just hand stamped locally with the unit identity. Much as we'd paint a butt number on our SA80's now

[krinko]

"Let me ask anyone else out there who has ever seen a rifle....., any rifle....., that's been through the UK Military FTR programme that has come out still bearing the old unit markings etc etc stamped into the butt. It just wouldn't happen......... Let alone bear German markings......., I mean...., well, they really need to get out a bit more.......... "

It...
It....
It could...
It could have been issued to an Australian Embassy Guard in Uruguay after 1952, been stolen by Eichmann and marked by Mengele with a homemade stamp---which is why it looks odd.
Yeah, that could've happened, like that movie 'Boys From Brazil', with Gregory Peccary, or whatever.
YOU PEOPLE ARE SO CYNICAL!!!
It's real, I just know it is.
-----krinko

[Badger]

I am not seeing in this discussion an important point raised in the gunboards forum's discussion. That is; "The German Eagle is facing the WRONG way." If this is so surely this would put it in the realms of fakery? Unless it was stamped by a left-handed armourer.

That's an excellent point that needs to be pointed out when discussing this piece with any objectivity ...

I have no dog in this fight. I do wonder looking at the Large stamp that is backwards, is this stamp actually an embossing punch used to stamp sheet metal items from the back side and produce the correct eagle on the viewing side. Can’t imagine somebody going to all the trouble to fake a stamp to have it be backwards.

Interesting .. I would have never thought of that and if this is a fake, then the guy who did it was dumber than a box of rocks ...

Regards,
Badger

[SpikeDD]

This is a bit confusing to me. I have read all of the presented information and the responses in regard to this rifle and it seems pretty clear to me as to what it most probably is. A very important function of these boards was executed here with this particular rifle, albeit, not probably in the most "politically correct" way but none the less, still presented. A question was asked about a German mark on a British rifle on a Enfield board. Members of the K98 boards were asked to come and have a look-see and opinions were given, albeit, not in the most "politically correct" fashion but, given, none the less. The manor in which attention had been brought to this rifle and the manor in which the responses were given doesn't change the fact of the matter. To discard the information given by the K98 folks would be the same as the opinions of our most respected Enfield experts being discarded. I thought this was how it is supposed to work.

Bearhunter posted a list of weapons the Germans were known to have captured/used but I can't see the relevancy in this information. I think it's great information and very interesting but how does the listing prove this particular rifle is the real thing? I've read these postings twice over and can't see anything posted doubting the fact that Germany captured and used weapons.

It appears to me a question was asked but the answer wasn't what was expected. Superbee, I honestly would not like to see you get burned and I think you did exactly what you should have done if you were in doubt. I hope it all works out in the end.

Edited to correct reference to enfield303t... Thank you Sir

[Badger]

Good debate is about listening to various points of view and responding objectively, staying focused on the issue at hand.

I believe everyone has heard clearly that experts amongst the K98k community have branded this a complete fake, so that should be clear and really doesn't require much more emotional reinforcement. I also believe highly respected and knowledgeable collectors in the Enfield community have also labeled it as a fake, so that doesn't require additional confirmation either.

What I think is important, is for other members of either community who believe there's an element of doubt or room for error in those positions, to get their chance to voice there opinions without being marginalized, or labeled heretics, by being shouted down as somehow unimportant.

I've read some very interesting pros and cons in this thread, but I've also read a lot of noise that as with most Internet forums, has to be filtered through to listen to the important points and thoughtful content.

Regards,
Badger

[bigduke6]

As Sprog has pointed out the eagle is pointing the wrong way, and so is the swastika, so it is a stamp that JBS describes, The one on the action looks too rounded, Think the butt may of been changed, so this could be the real Mcoy, as for the action .....

Think what Bearhunter has posted needs to archived, very interesting.

One thing we must not forget at the time if it was stamped then (the Butt), was the amount of forced or slave labour used, and for one of these labourers to have a last laugh and use a different stamp who knows.

[bearhunter]

What I'm really trying to point out here is that Germany marked many other nations firearms, as they either used or captured them. I am not familiar enough with the stamp forms to say that rifle was FTRed in the UK or Australia. It may have been FTRed in Germany or any other European or African country it was left behind in. In 1977, I had the opportunity to see and handle (not shoot) several NoI MkIII rifles and .38 MkI Enfield revolvers. They all bore Austrian markings. Yes, I know they were issued to them by the UK occupation troops and provisional government of the day.
To jump up and down and say this rifle is a fake, baffles me to tell the truth. If the rifle was FTRed out of the UK or any other Commonwealth country, it's quite probable they only replace worn out or broken parts, if they had them. A good example of this and many on this board have them, are the SMLE and No4 rifles from India and Pakistan. Many of them have been FTRed several times and still bear their original furniture. The same goes for Russian, Norwegian and Finnish FTRs of captured German arms. This isn't really that unusual. Peter, you may be right. I wouldn't have happened in the UK or "maybe" any other Commonwealth nation. From what I see in your post, the furniture is scrubbed of all previous to FTR marks. I can dig out some No4 rifles that were FTRed and do bear original furniture and stamps. They may not have been done in the UK though. It isn't uncommon to find repairs on FTRed rifles either. I will also admit it is unusual to find a Lithgow, with german marks that has gone through an FTR. Maybe a tech had a sense of humor after all.

The man who sold the rifle to Superbee is beyond repute. In my opinion anyway. He would be happy to give SB a full refund, again IMHO. He had the rifle in his collection for over 20 years. He is very well respected in Canada as well as the US. I only wish he would chime in here.

[enfield303t]

SpikeDD, not my rifle if you read the first post it belongs to someone else so no disrespect taken.

[enfield303t]

I know lots think it is a total fake, maybe it is and I wish the person who stamped it would give a testimonial?? To use the word never still bothers me as I learned long ago it is a very dangerous word as far too often in the past I have used it only to be proven wrong in the end. I do remember a judge telling me that something may happen "rarely" but to say "never" will not be believed. I still think it is a very interesting gun and no one will convince me that it was stamped in the recent past, the person who has owned it since at least 1991 just wouldn't do that. I have a good idea of what was paid for it and say again there sure wasn't much monetary gain for the effort if it was faked for profit.

[finloq]

I know lots think it is a total fake, maybe it is and I wish the person who stamped it would give a testimonial?? To use the word never still bothers me as I learned long ago it is a very dangerous word as far too often in the past I have used it only to be proven wrong in the end. I do remember a judge telling me that it may happen rarely but to say "never" will not be believed. I still think it is a very intersting gun and no one will convince me that it was stamped in the recent past, the person who has owned it since at least 1991 just wouldn't do that. I have a good idea of what was paid for it and say again there sure wasn't much monetary gain for the effort if it was faked for profit.

$1000 CAN, does not add up to much. Unless you are selling several different rifles with said stamps.