german marked SMLE (real or fake?)

[sprog]

Nobody has quite yet explained how the eagle is looking the wrong way and the swastika is also cack-handed. Don't tell me......... the German inspector was having a bad hair day and thought he'd do it as a joke. Come on........................!

Because that's what some are virtually saying about it having passed all the inspectors during its progress through the FTR programme............

When I did my Apprenticeship, which was around the same time as you, Peter, what you're doing was called "farting against thunder". This discussion can go on for ever, there's none so deaf as those who don't want to hear.

---------- Post added at 05:07 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:03 PM ----------

Look, the OP can believe whatever he wants, but NEVER EVER did WaA number get applied one at a time under a nazi eagle. in one photo you can clearly see the three were stamped indivicually and you can make out the stamp mark impressions. FAKE. Period. In the end it matters not WHO faked it or when.

Yes it does matter Claven cos our money is to hard earned to be given to unscrupulous sellers however many years they've been in business.

[enfield303t]

Hopfully this will explain my thinking on why NEVER is such a dangerous word. For the model year 1978 GM NEVER built a Monte Carlo with bucket seats and a four speed floor mounted transmission...... and yet I owned one. Reason: someone screwed up or at worse was screwing with General Motors. The factory sales rep could not explain it nor anyone else that worked for GM. When registered it caused nothing but confusion as it was JUST a Monte Carlo, no special model which I was told was impossible for that car. Saying NEVER to a gun that was probably FTR'd when most of the readers were either not born or too young to be involved in the industry is a rush to judgement. Perhaps it is likely fake but I can't say it is absolutely 100% fake.

[Claven2]

It could also be possible that it's the 285th rifle to be stamped that way.

You're kidding right? The eagle isn;t even clutching a swastika - it's like some pathetic melted cross or something. FAKE.

[Claven2]

Perhaps it is likely fake but I can't say it is absolutely 100% fake.

OK then, let me be more clear. I would stake my entire personal equity AND yours that the eagle in my second to last post above is fake. If some of the other markings are real, then someone sure botched up a capture by adding some incorrect fake waffenampts. Like a previous posted was saying - some blind people don't actually want to see.

Oh, and German inspection marks have never been legitimately recorded with a year under them so I have to say that 1943 mark is fake too.

[5thBatt]

Hopfully this will explain my thinking on why NEVER is such a dangerous word. For the model year 1978 GM NEVER built a Monte Carlo with bucket seats and a four speed floor mounted transmission......

Just entered "1978 Monte Carlo 4 speed manual with bucket seats" in a feature my computer has, its called "Google" you should try it.

[enfield303t]

Just entered "1978 Monte Carlo 4 speed manual with bucket seats" in a feature my computer has, its called "Google" you should try it.

I just did Google the car and guess what all the pictures I found show it with a AUTOMATIC transmission not a 4 on the floor. The Monte Carlo was considered in Canada to be for someone wanting a "step up" from a Malibu and not a "sporty" car so they would not offer a 4 on the floor. The listed options from the Flint plant were not available on cars for Canada. The car was ordered by the dealer as a bench seat automatic transmission car but that is not what arrived. It appeared to have a Malibu SS type interior which was not available on a base model Monte Carlo. There was even confusion as to where it was built. I got a super deal as no one wanted it.

But I have digressed from a gun that actually might be legit but of course will go into the unproven forever. I still trust the owner and the story it arrived in a batch of approx 5,000 rifles. Oh and the owner also has a Thompson and two Bren's with Nazi marks.

[5thBatt]

I found options for 305 V8 with 4 speed manual gearbox, plus option for bucket seats, one site does mention some options like the 4 speed not being available in some places

[enfield303t]

This could go on forever, the pro's and con's about this gun. I refer back to the posting by Badger, why would you do this as it makes no sense at all. This is not a expensive gun and probably will sit at the asking price for the rest of time? It seems that if something is different then it must be fake I disagree. Just because no paperwork can be found means nothing. I remember while visiting Auschwitz being told that the Nazi's claimed no one was executed at that camp as there was no paperwork to show they did... well we all know in reality they killed scores at Auschwitz. This gun is not a Winchester that someone is trying to convince us was engraved by Nimsche which would raise the value considerably, it is a ordianary No 1 at a price that is reasonable. When I talked to the owner the story of this gun showing up made total sense, and I believe he has "handled" millions of milsurps and found some very strange ones, some many would say are fake as they don't "fit the mold". The opinon of fake holds no more water than people who think it is legit. Common sense suggests that if this gun is fake someone was nuts if they thought it would someday be worth a fortune as it was acquired in a batch of guns purchased for pennies on the dollar. I honestly believe the present owner found it exactly as shown and did not do anything to enhance the value. I will agree to a notion that a Aussie REME with a great sense of "humour " might have let this slip thru the cracks.

[Son]

Ok, folks- Just in, the information I requested from the OP on FACTS about the rifle in it's current form.

Forget the coachwood, The butt, foreend and handguards are walnut, all EFD manufacture marked and the foreend is marked with the rifle serial. NONE of the woodwork was changed at FTR.

The FTR/52 is clearly marked on the lower left of the receiver butt socket as were all Lithgow FTR's in that time frame.

The barrel is Lithgow made, dated 1952 and serialed to the rifle. The bolt is original EFD and serialed to the rifle.

The metalwork is finished in the same green parkerize as other FTR Lithgow rifles in his collection.

There is no obvious sign of the marking on the receiver being applied after the action was parkerized. No bruising, no raised edges, no chipped finish.

Superbee also informed me that the rifle has been returned, so I feel any further speculation on the authenticity of the marks shouldn't include any reference to him.

Now, everybody with an opinion here, take a step back and re-visit your opinion with the knowledge of these FACTS as provided.
Once again, if there's anything I can answer about this, please feel free to ask.

regards,
Brad.

[enfield303t]

Son on the serious side thanks for your posting as it is very interesting and informative. I talked to superbee shortly after his original posting and was 99% sure he was going to return the rifle. I also talked to the owner and asked him to hold it for me for 24 hours and in the end decided to let it go. Is the gun authentic, more than likely not but all along my main point was that many strange things happened during WWII and after spending countless hours years ago with the owner of the largest Nazi war collection in the world (no one disputed this fact) I saw things that people said were NEVER produced or NEVER happened. The baffling thing to me still is how it ended up in a shipment of surplus rifles that the owner bought for virtually pocket change compared to their value? I "travel" in a very small circle of shooters/collectors who say nothing but good things about the present owner and that he wouldn't fake anything. This has been interesting and on CGN is a debate about a M44 with Nazi markings, please check out that one.

In the end I may kick myself for not buying this gun.