german marked SMLE (real or fake?)

[finloq]

I would be very interested in seeing the top of the barrel on the M44. Looking for one of the Soviet refurb markings from the 70's massive refurb program.

[Claven2]

Since you asked, here are the pics of the other rifle under discussion from the same dealer.

[Claven2]

In the case of the above rifle, the WaA's at least look quite good. What I feel makes this one suspect are the following:

1) No less than 4 eagles on the receiver ring, three of which appear to be firing proofs with no number and one of which has a number, WaA241. WaA241, according to Backbone, seems to have been retired as an inspector in 1935, 10 years before this rifle was made.

2) Nobody seems to have seen a captured arm marked with the german designation number for that model on the receiver or anywhere else, but this one has it. Oddly, the three numbers (457) all seem to be in different size font from each other.

3) The WaA on the bayonet lug is highly suspect to me since the Germans didn't manufacture that parts, so difficult to imagine they gauged it and inspected it there.

4) the rifle was made some time in 1945, apparently captured, returned to a heereswaffenampt depot, inspected and stamped 7 times, then returned to the front line for issue and in that short time, it managed to end up with no two parts matching each other in serial number.

5) the buttstock has been sanded, no shellac remains on it and the soviet factory cartouche is obliterated. This suggests some level of rework which the Germans would not have done in 1945. If it happened after the war, one would think the eagle on the wrist would no longer be there.

On the positive side, it doesn't show signs of Soviet rework. It does not have the dish cuts behind the rear band, its a wartime M44 stock, no diamond or square refurb marks on the receiver or barrel shank, bayonet lug consistent with 1944 or first half 1945 manufacture and it has the added bonus of being built on a recycled earlier hex receiver.

It's a relatively collectable non-refurb early M44 even without nazi markings.

[finloq]

Yep.
Stock has been sanded and refinished.
Missing the Soviet refurb stamps, but is a complete mismatch: Bolt, Barrel, Magazine, Butt Plate, etc.
Is it a trick of the light or does the receiver blue seem mostly intact, while the barrel's has been polished much more.
The Germans stamped the carbine all over, but left the Soviet crest and then the Soviets left the German stamps?

[Claven2]

Supposedly it was crated up in Yugoslavia after the war and hadn't been touched since 1947. In other words, it supposedly didn't go back to the Soviet Union, but stayed in Yugoslavia after the war. Either way, I don't get how it got so mismatched - clearly someone refurbed it and didn't bother re-numbering the parts to match, which just screams pot-war balkans rework to me. If the bolt was swapped along with the stock, how did they end up with the same WaA inspector's stamp on them, and why WaA241 which supposedly was not used after 1945?

Lots of unanswered questions on this rifle too, I'm afraid.

[enfield303t]

Peter on the serious side where did you see that hundreds of thousands of stens were air dropped and captured? I am only asking as I saw a documentary on the Military Channel of how the French underground was compromised and I forget the number of weapons they said were captured but seriously in was in the thousands and I quite sure they said 10,000 rounds of ammunition. I think I would have remembered if they had mentioned hundreds of thousands. This documentary was on in the last couple of days.

Thanks

[enfield303t]

I think if the guns were shipped on pallets they would have been crated and the crates would be packed on pallets. Shipping from a old iron curtain country would never have been loose weapons. I categorized the guns only on the strange markings and not that they were from the same era or storage depot. I know the Enfield did not come in a crate dated 1947. I am just happy that this thread is getting a life of its own as the more that see it the more knowledge will be shared. I'll say it again, I have no problem believing something is very strange at the least with these two guns, just won't believe something very strange NEVER happened.

[jonnyc]

Ok, just to set the stage, I have BA's in History, and International Relations, and a Master's in History. I've been teaching all sorts of military history at high school level for 17 years. I have been collecting and studying milsurps for at least 25 years. I've seen and read the opinions of lots of very knowledgeable people in books, in the flesh, and on-line. I feel comfortable saying "never" over the idea that a rifle made in Russia 1945 could have been issued to a Soviet soldier, captured by the Germans, overhauled and inspected, and reissued to a German, all between January and May 1945. I don't believe the Germans would have had the time, manpower, or inclination to make such a rifle possible, they had much more serious things to deal with.
I have seen and heard some pretty strange things in my life, but NEVER is no problem for me under the right circumstances.

[enfield303t]

I think it is only fair to say that the post by Son thickens the plot, I just found it as I have been working and my friend bearhunter called me to tell me about it. I read the last postings a hour or so ago but didn't know the one by Son existed 'till now. Thanks again Son your post just makes sure this thread is gong to last even longer.

[Son]

I think it is only fair to say that the post by Son thickens the plot, I just found it as I have been working and my friend bearhunter called me to tell me about it. I read the last postings a hour or so ago but didn't know the one by Son existed 'till now. Thanks again Son your post just makes sure this thread is gong to last even longer.

I don't care which way the discussion goes- I have very little knowledge of the German and Nazi equipment and marking practices, and find it all quite interesting. There's been a few assumptions/ assertions made, especially by some of the earlier posters, that have been taken as gospel. The "eagle facing the wrong way" was mentioned here, but rammed down the throats of the inexperienced on another board. I hope that my post may have re-opened a few eyes at least.
Finding out the rifle is still bearing it's original walnut, and not the assumed '51 FTR coachwood, took the wind out of a couple of sails over there too.
I still cannot see a picture here that convinces me a swastika is backwards. Could someone please tell me which one to study and I'll try some photoshop magic on it. I'm not sure the eagle's head should be such an issue now...