german marked SMLE (real or fake?)

[Homer2]

Milsurp rifles were captured, stamped and used by opposing nations. There are literally thousands of Mosins and other soviet weapons that bear Nazi stamps.

Where? I have seen plenty of WW1 captured stamps on Mosins from Germany and Austria, but never seen a legitimate WW2 German marked Mosin. That M44 is really sad. If it weren't stamped by someone with ADD, it would be a nice example of an unusual Mosin and quite desirable.

I would love to see an example of a Nazi marked Mosin for comparison. There have been plenty of Finn marked [SA] 91/30's that were recaptured by the Soviets and imported with the last batch of refurb rifles. If there were truely Nazi marked Mosins, there would be ample examples showing up with refurbs and other places. No such thing as far as I have seen.

Germans definately used SVTs, Mosins, TT-33s, and such. Were they property marked? How many of those have turned up?

Buy the rifle, not the story. It's called a Criswellian Fallacy to have to prove something didn't happen. The burden of proof is not on the skeptic.

Criswell's Razor - TCS Daily

[villiers]

Ah yes Villiers, but they were CAPTURED AND STORED by the wermacht. Then presumably issued to the volkspeople by them. Yes?

I don't want to cloud the real issue with this side issue. I just toss it in as a further point to ponder.

Yes Peter, they were captured and stored by the Wehrmacht ... but not ISSUED to Wehrmacht units. When the time came, they were broken out of storage and handed out to the local Volkssturm. (From what I´ve heard, they were then discarded in the nearest ditch).

To get back on topic: the immediate re-issue of captured weapons (i.e. Enfields) would necessarily entail a quick armourer´s check and cursory application of acceptance stamps to indicate permitted use. Don´t really think that those responsible would have had latter-day US collectors in mind while doing their job under improvised or front line conditions. B*ggered stamps are not all that uncommon.

[Claven2]

I think if the guns were shipped on pallets they would have been crated and the crates would be packed on pallets. Shipping from a old iron curtain country would never have been loose weapons. I categorized the guns only on the strange markings and not that they were from the same era or storage depot. I know the Enfield did not come in a crate dated 1947. I am just happy that this thread is getting a life of its own as the more that see it the more knowledge will be shared. I'll say it again, I have no problem believing something is very strange at the least with these two guns, just won't believe something very strange NEVER happened.

As far as I am aware, it is this dealer's standard practise to destroy the crates in the country of origina and either box or palletize the guns to cut down on freight costs. This is exactly what they just did with their Chinese SKS shipment. In any event, no way they kept the crates since the 1990's, so again, I wait to see proof this was in a crate never touched by human hands since 1947. I suspect I will wait forever.

[Claven2]

I still cannot see a picture here that convinces me a swastika is backwards. Could someone please tell me which one to study and I'll try some photoshop magic on it. I'm not sure the eagle's head should be such an issue now...

This is the one that bothers me the most. All other eagles face left on the rifle, this one faces right. Now look at the wreath and the "swastika". Given the clearness of the strike of the whole stamp, do the wreath and swastika look kosher to you? Now someone please show me a WaA on any other german arm where the inspector numbers are punched individually with ring-collared hardware store type number stamps in arial font.

[villiers]

A hastily botched stamp on a captured rifle for use by some semi regular unit on guard duty somewhere. One could hardly expect Wehrmacht armourers in war time to go the full Monty on refurbing scrap metal.

[jrhead75]

Just a couple of question on this, since I haven't been following all it's permutations on all the boards...has there been even one experienced collector of WWII German militaria that buys into this rifle? Where are the others like it, or did the Germans only do the one? Does anyone here really believe that the Germans would have had the time, resources, or inclination to do up that Mosin like that at any time in 1945?

I'm honestly amazed that this is still being debated.

[Claven2]

To answer your question, no. No well known German militaria collectors have weighted in on the "it's real" side fo the arguement on any ofthe threads I've been following. The only guys who are siding with the "it's real" camp are the Enfield and Mosin guys, and typically the newer collectors from what I can discern.

All I can say is if guys like bearhunter or enfield303t believe it to be legitimate, they should contact the dealer to purchase it because I think the OP returned it, if I'm not mistaken. He posted here it in the first place due to doubts about its authenticity.

[Son]

This is the one that bothers me the most. All other eagles face left on the rifle, this one faces right. Now look at the wreath and the "swastika". Given the clearness of the strike of the whole stamp, do the wreath and swastika look kosher to you? Now someone please show me a WaA on any other german arm where the inspector numbers are punched individually with ring-collared hardware store type number stamps in arial font.

Ok, where would a German rifle be when it was stamped? At the end of a production line at the factory perhaps? Why would a captured rifle go to a factory that doesn't make them? The stamp looks more like it's damaged... not "factory" quality. Not an inspection by someone who has his own special made stamp?

Enough speculation from me... until there's more facts.

Oh, I'd say the OP posted here hoping to get treated reasonably (which he has), not flung against a wall and stoned for being a blasphemer.

[Claven2]

Ok, where would a German rifle be when it was stamped? At the end of a production line at the factory perhaps? Why would a captured rifle go to a factory that doesn't make them? The stamp looks more like it's damaged... not "factory" quality. Not an inspection by someone who has his own special made stamp?
[...]
Oh, I'd say the OP posted here hoping to get treated reasonably (which he has), not flung against a wall and stoned for being a blasphemer.

There are really only two possibilities for where the rifle would get stamped. One would be a rear echelon arms depot and the other would be a repair facility. Rifles captured and re-issued in the field out of necessity would not have gotten stamped at all. Arms edpots and repair facilities would have had proper heereswaffenampt inspection staff right up until mid-1944 (after which the liklihood of ANy capture stamps goes WAY down as those units were pilfered to supply personnel to the Eastern Front.). Heereswafemampt inspectors used proper stamps which were readily available to them. they didn't need to "improvise". Like any beurocrat today, they would not allow anything into the field where a soldier or arms inspector would not be able to positively identify a "safe to use" marking as being legitimate.

Certainly no inspectors would add their inspection number under and eagle with individual stamps. Purpose-made WaA stamps with the numbers already underneath were provided and were required to be used.

I also don't think anyone has stoned either the original poster or the dealer. Healthy discussion about the pieces involved and their authenticity is to be encouraged, but similarly, it doesn't help to spend too much time on "What if...." type fanciful imaginations and musngs. The methods and tools of the WaA are well documented in dozens of books on the subject and if a piece desont; fit that pattern, at best it's suspect. At worst, an obvious fake.

[RobSmith]

The fact that they would have been quickly discarded would not have been hard to believe. If you extrapolate from WW1 stories and those caught with "sawback" bayonets and the rumors of particularly harsh treatment that they received, it's not hard to see how similar rumors would have quickly circulated regarding those caught in possession of captured "enemy" equipment ...

Yes Peter, they were captured and stored by the Wehrmacht ... but not ISSUED to Wehrmacht units. When the time came, they were broken out of storage and handed out to the local Volkssturm. (From what I´ve heard, they were then discarded in the nearest ditch).