german marked SMLE (real or fake?)

[Kev G]

I think the German use of captured weapons is well documentated,I believe someone (Son ?) has allready posted a link to the Axis History forums which has an ongoing thread dedicated to photographic evidence of this (mainly Soviet small arms).
Whether any captured small arm was checked and stamped by an inspector I don't know.Apart from giving it a 'once over' it seems not allot more could be done without having gauging limits for every type and calibre of weapon that might be encountered ?
I am more familiar with Waffenampt inspection stamps (WaA followed by the inspectors number under a stylised eagle) e.g WaA63, as used in German and German controled factories as a production QC mark.
If the number 283 is supposed to be an inspectors number it is undocumentated AFAIK and have never encountered an inspectors number done with individual punches as allready mentioned.
As for what is inside the wreath underneath the eagle I haven't got a clue but the best image I have tinkered with to get a clearer view is as a negative.
I'm curious as to what the 'comma' type marks are on the wood going against the grain,are they typical of a timber type , sanding or insect damage ? Has this any bearing as to whether they are under the stamp ?

ATB Kevin

[jrhead75]

There certainly isn't any question at all that the Germans used captured weapons and equipment...they did without a doubt. But literally every marked piece I've seen that was considered genuine by collectors of such things had been marked very discreetly with nothing more than the occasional waffenampt inspection stamp and possibly a letter or two...often obscure enough in meaning to cause debate in their own right. More often than not, they aren't marked at all.

Not too long ago, I lucked into a pretty good "closet cache" when an old friend of mine was given a bunch of things by his father in law, a former combat engineer with the US 7th Army (IIRC). He'd fought through southern France and into Austria, and "liberated" a small pile of rifles that they took from the survivors of a Volkssturm unit that had been defending a building of some sort. I ended up with most of the firearms (German, French, Italian, Belgian, & Czech), and the only indication of German use I could find on any of them was one tiny waffenamt on the CZ-27 (probably produced under German occupation), and what appears to be an old '88 Mauser sling on a Carcano 91/38.

It's been nearly 25 years since I've dealt with any 3rd Reich stuff, but even I can say without any doubt that somebody messed up what appears to be a very nice rifle with fake German markings. I'll gladly change my tune if even one "known" experienced German collector blesses it, and am in fact curious as to why the OP didn't take this to any of the German boards (or did I miss something).

[bearhunter]

The Germans, issued captured Mosins, back to captured Russian troops that had the choice of starving to death, in the camps, or being sent back to the Russians, unarmed, where they would be executed out of hand, as per Stalin's orders, pertaining to individuals that surrendered. At least, fighting for the axis powers gave them a few meals and a slim chance of survival, rathr than none.

There were also, Finn vollunteer units, fighting with the Axis troops that carried Mosins. Your guess is as good as mine, as to how many were captures and where they came from.

As was mentioned before, International Firearms, brought in a whole whack of M44 and M38 Carbines, bearing Axis stamps. The lot referred to here, supposedly came in in 1993-94. I have a 94 catalogue and it doesn't show the capture marked rifles. I seem to remember them coming in much earlier, more like the early eighties.

Never say never, when it comes to milsurps. Peter L, that is a comment you use quite often, is it not?

I know a couple of fellows, that served on the Russian front, from 1943 - 1945. One is Russian and one is German. They know and like each other very much. They respect the hell out of each other as only opposing combatants really can. They were great fishing and hunting partners, until the Russian had his stroke. The German isn't really mobile any more either. I talked to him recently about the discussion here. He just laughed at how foolish it all is.

He remembered the ragged and starved captured Russian troops being sent into battle, alongside the Wermacht troops. He was both POed, because they had just been fed a hot meal of porridge and he hadn't, he was scared they would turn on him and he felt very sorry for them, all at the same time. They were huge eyed, frightened skeletons, many with only rags on their feet for shoes. They were sent ahead of the Wermacht, to get the Soviets to use up their ammunition, which was usually in short supply. Most of them didn't even raise their rifles to fight back. The one thing they all had in common, they died hard and well. That was his description, not mine.

Both the old soldiers, hated the war. Hated the fighting and by the end of the war, both knew it was for nothing. Just a group of Sociopaths in charge of two very powerful fighting machines, delving as deeply as possible into their insane fantasies, all the while taking the "sane" people along for the ride and infecting them with their insanity. It really isn't that hard to envision.

Uli, commented on the Lee Enfield, with the police stamp. He just said, there is nothing more near sighted and anal than a police weapons tech. They stamped or painted everything they ever used. At the very least, there would be some kind of mark, even their boots and pencils. That really looks to be a municipal police stamp.

The axis stamps on the M44 and M38 rifles, could have been put on by the captured Russians, on the orders of the Germans, before they were pushed onto the battlefield. There are so many scenarios at play here as to make most of these discussions futile. IMHO, those rifles have a better chance of being legitimate than not.

[jrhead75]

The axis stamps on the M44 and M38 rifles, could have been put on by the captured Russians, on the orders of the Germans, before they were pushed onto the battlefield.

Are you seriously suggesting this about the 1945 dated M44 illustrated in this thread?

[Brian Dick]

I remember a story from Graham Johnson who had CanAm Enterprises in Ontario for many years. He had a 1" Canadian "C-Broad Arrow" electric brand used for marking shipping crates and such during war production which now resides here in my office. He told me that back in the 60's he took one P-14 from a pile and branded one stock. The damned thing must have sold several times over the course of the show where it was stuck in the middle of the pile and the story got better with each change of hands. Caveat Emptor.

[bearhunter]

I'm not suggesting anything one way or the other. I'm saying never say never. It can and does, come back to haunt you. The scenario, I envisioned above, is more than possible, that particular rifle, sat in storage since 1947, it has been documented and proven to that time period. It isn't a one off, by a long shot. There were literally thousands of those carbines, bearing those marks, sold in Canada on at least two separate occasions. Back when FACs, were pushed, ungently, into law, there were several turn in drives, for unwanted weapons in Canada. I was surprised at how many were turned in. Thousands of bubbaed and whole Lee Enfields, Mausers and above all Mosins. Almost all were junk grade or lower. Many, that looked decent had rusty bores, from shooting corrosive primed ammunition.
Later, when they decided to push the long gun registry on Canadians, they had several more pogroms and amnesties to turn in unwanted firearms, for those that didn't want to get a license. Again, Mosins were prolific by their numbers. Most, again, were beaters. The ammunition, wasn't in plentiful supply and a lot of people just got rid of them, the easiest way possible. Turning them in.

Brian, I respect your opinion but you are talking about a "one off, rifle". There really were thousands of the above mentioned Mosins sold in Canada, at bargain basement prices. If I recall, there was a discount for quantity.
I saw several Mosins with those stamps in the piles. After all, the first batch, sold for under $30. International also sold the ammunition. I won't say there aren't unscrupulous individuals out there but I think you fellows are getting frighted by your own shadows.

[jrhead75]

I won't say there aren't unscrupulous individuals out there but I think you fellows are getting frighted by your own shadows.

And with sincere respect I would suggest that when the scenario of German troops handing a Mosin and a Waffenamt stamp to Russian prisoners before sending them into battle seems even a remotely likely one to explain away unlikely markings on a milsurp rifle, it's probably a good idea to avoid shadows (or reaching for one's wallet) for a while.

Bottom line...I guess everyone's got the inalienable right to hand their money over to whomever they choose.

[bearhunter]

jrhead75, can you think of a quicker way to indentify the good ones from the bad ones? Quick, easy and identifiable to both sides. None of the Russians, with the axis marked weapons, would be able to just mingle in with the rest of the gang, unless they managed to capture another rifle.

[villiers]

Just another item of useless information:-

Germany was only in a position to re-introduced its law governing ballistic testing of weapons (Beschussprüfungs Gesetz) in 1951. Up until then, the few weapons permitted for use by police, other law enforcement agencies and para military units controlled by the Allies were limited to surplus and redundant Allied items that were accepted for use by German armourers and STAMPED. As no new stamps had been issued, the old Nazi Wehrmacht stamps with more or less defaced Nazi emblems were generally used until new stamps were devised some time after 1951.
PS
Most were later sold on the open market and the leading German publication DWJ regularly contains articles on the subject of the various stamps to be found on these weapons.

[jrhead75]

jrhead75, can you think of a quicker way to indentify the good ones from the bad ones? Quick, easy and identifiable to both sides. None of the Russians, with the axis marked weapons, would be able to just mingle in with the rest of the gang, unless they managed to capture another rifle.

How would a Russian soldier carrying a pickup MP-40 or K98 mingle with the rest of his "gang"? It happened all the time. I doubt very seriously that anyone was checking stamps on Mosins at the time.

Considering the confusion of a battlefield, and the ease of losing one's weapon to malfunction or damage, checking stamps on rifles doesn't seem to be a very efficient way of discerning allegiance.